Becoming a Career Coach with Lucy Higgins: Reinventing Careers After Motherhood
with Lucy Higgins, Life Coach
Transcript
Edited for readability: filler words removed, names checked. It may still contain errors. The audio is the source of truth.
Lucy Higgins
I recognize that it took a lot of work, a lot of investment in myself, to come to that conclusion, because I don't think anyone's going to do it for you. I think that you have to make that commitment to yourself, otherwise you'll just get told what to do and your life is not really your own.
Tobi
Is there any final advice you would maybe have given to yourself, if you were now able to meet the younger Lucy who is building up this career coaching business? How do I build a successful private coaching practice? How do I turn my passion, my personal story, into a business, and
how can I really help transform my clients' lives? These were questions that we discussed sort of generally on our last session on the Making of a Coach, together with Lucy Higgins, a successful career coach and coach trainer. Back then Lucy was mainly speaking from her experience as a coach trainer and the questions she's getting there. Today we continue this conversation, but we make those questions very applied. We unpack, pillar by pillar, how Lucy has answered them for herself in her very own real practice. Small spoiler: the central point of Lucy's practice is her career change program, a directive coaching program that helps ambitious mothers redefine their career. Lucy has developed this from her own personal story, as well as from her experience of a few years of non-directive coaching practice, and by now it really has
become her bestseller. So let's see how she's done it. Let's go.
Interview
Lucy Higgins
So, as I said earlier, one of my business pillars is the training. But I'm going to put that aside, because we've kind of talked about that. In terms of the coaching, I see it as split into two. One of the income streams is my work with a coaching platform called BetterUp, and the other one is my private work. Obviously with the associate coaching platforms, they find the clients for you, you don't have any admin really, but you get paid a lot less. Whereas with the private work it's all on me, all the admin's on me, and I have to find those clients. So I do similar things on both, as in what I'm helping them with is very similar. It's just that the way I find the clients and the way that I'm seeing them is different. With both of these groups, they tend to be either in a corporate or in an organization already, but they're unhappy and they want to make a change in some way. And I can help them do that either with non-directive coaching, just pure coaching, or with a directive program that I have, which is a career change program really, where I take people from not knowing what they want to do with their career to being absolutely crystal clear about what that is and having a plan to get there. So there are these two sorts of ways of career coaching, I suppose: one is directive and one is non-directive.
Tobi
And what's the mission that you are on with your private practice?
Lucy Higgins
The mission, well, it's to help women to navigate the systems that they feel stuck within, I would say, and to find fulfilment in their life and career. A lot of women feel very stuck in our society, because they can't do anything right, they can't achieve their potential, they're constantly being pushed down. And I help them to see that system and to really navigate it so it serves them. That could be actually navigating the company, the organization that they're in, and deciding to stay in there but changing their mindset, and maybe upskilling in terms of the way they communicate, or their personal brand, or something like that. Or it could be leaving that organization and doing something somewhere else, or changing career. But it's really helping them to find happiness when they're not very happy at work.
Tobi
And on our previous session we talked about how authenticity plays a big role in how you portray that change, how you also stand for that change. So can you talk to me a bit about how that journey, from frustration and then reorienting your idea, looked for you?
Lucy Higgins
Yeah. I think in life we have a tendency to think that we're the only one going through something, and that we are the problem. And so I went through my twenties doing a job that essentially somebody else told me I'd be good at. Somebody else had said, you are good with people, you're a good communicator, you should go into corporate communications. So I did, and I did quite well, and I climbed the ladder, but I was very, very stressed and I wasn't fulfilled. It didn't bring me any sense of satisfaction really. But I thought, everyone feels like this, this is what life is, this is how it is. You're exhausted and you keep going to work. I was going in at like seven in the morning, leaving at nine at night, just ridiculous overworking. And then, when I had my
first child, I think I just had a wake up call. I just thought, actually, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to live that life anymore with a child, I want to be there for my baby. And I also don't want that life for the next 20 years. I don't know how I'm going to do that, be this stressed with a baby and not sleeping. So I used that time to do a big, deep dive on myself, really, and just think, who am I? What do I want? What life do I want for the future? And that involved therapy and coaching. I actually went on the Tony Robbins, what's it called, Unleash the Power Within, one of his group programs that we were talking about. And through that process, that's when I discovered coaching, I realized that's what I wanted to do, I wanted to be a coach. I also considered being a clinical psychologist, but actually I decided coaching was the right thing for me. And then that led me to retraining. And then through that whole sort of
career change, I found fulfilment. I found a way that works for me, a life that works for me with my children. But I recognize that it took a lot of work, a lot of investment in myself, to come to that conclusion, because I don't think anyone's going to do it for you. I think that you have to make that commitment to yourself, otherwise you'll just get told what to do and your life is not really your own. So I suppose, when you are saying, how do these two things match up, my business and my personal journey, it's like I really recognize myself in my clients. I recognize where they're at, and many of them are experiencing what I experienced too. Whether it's being sidelined when I went on maternity leave, whether it's hanging off my husband's coattails while I was looking after children and feeling very underappreciated, whether it's
that tension that I felt between wanting to achieve my potential but desperately wanting to be there for my baby, or that frustration I felt at organizations, that they don't actually bloody help women to create this. Why are they losing so much talent as a result of it? It's madness to me, right? So I had a lot of anger and frustration. And then the real big thing that happened, I think, was during lockdown. So, I'd taken a back seat, brought up these, what were they, six and eight year old children, I'd been sort of training as a coach on the side but not bringing very much money in, relying on my husband for finances. Covid: he lost his business, and suddenly I was completely like, okay, well, I've got no way of really earning money. I looked around me and I saw all these women that were in a similar position. Not necessarily that their husbands had lost their business, but they were
definitely being put upon. A lot of women had to give up their jobs when they had to homeschool their kids, or they had to give up their jobs because they were looking after their parents who were ill. And not many men did that, because generally the male is the higher earner. So I saw this out there. And I, by the way, was homeschooling, I was looking after my mom who was ill, my stepdad died, so much happened that year, and it was all on me. And anyway, you mentioned a while ago what it was that led me to go and do that motherhood studies course. I'd done a sociology degree, and I noticed, God, what is happening in society, where you've got this massive exodus of women leaving the workplace because of Covid? And that led me to go and study motherhood studies under a sociologist called Dr. Sophie Brock. And so I'm now a certified
motherhood studies practitioner, and what that really means is that I've done a real niche course, a sociological course, on the institution of motherhood in society. So I really do understand that the patriarchal system keeps us stuck on purpose, by the way. So what that allows me to do in my coaching is really bring that lens into it and reassure my clients that this is not you. It is bloody hard, and it's hard for a reason, because this system has been set up for men, it hasn't been set up for women. So how can I help you in the coaching space to go, right, we know that we can't change it, I mean, we can try to affect it, but we can't change it overnight, so how can you make the best of it? How can you empower yourself here? How can you communicate better? How can you ask for what you want? How can you build the relationships, network, build your personal brand,
take control of it, essentially, because nobody else is going to. So I took that passion and that frustration that I felt in Covid, learned about why that happened, and now I use that in my coaching. And yes, you can probably tell I'm very passionate about it.
Tobi
And now you describe the lockdown period during Covid as sort of a turning point for you. Another one that you had mentioned, and a new word in fact that I learned from you, was matrescence. Can you talk about, what is matrescence, and what role does it play in the life of your clients and in your own?
Lucy Higgins
Yeah, I mean, it runs alongside all our work. Basically, if you think about the word adolescence, that's obviously, we know it very well, right? It's the period of change for a teenager. It's physiological, it's mental, it's sociological, all of those things, right, it's everything, political. Matrescence is the change that a woman goes through when she becomes a mother, and that touches on all the different spheres. Your role in society changes. People start treating you differently, very interesting. People either think less of you as a mother, if you're pushing a pram, or they have this urge to come and talk to you and be very friendly with you. It's very interesting. Physically, you obviously change hugely, I mean our bodies internally and externally. Mentally, neurologically, we change, our neural pathways change. So basically all these different things that we go through, hormonally we change. And none of it's recognized. You think about it, it's kind of just expected: oh, she's become a mother, great, good for her, how great, I bet you're having a wonderful time. Well, hang on, a lot
has changed, and it's not just, I don't have any sleep anymore. It's all these other changes that need validating. Who's there to validate them? No one. So matrescence needs to be, in my opinion, in the dictionary, and it needs to be talked about at school as something that happens to women, just like menopause, just like when you start with periods. It's another huge transition that women go through. And by the way, they are now bringing in patrescence, so there is actually some research that shows that men also go through changes, like women. They might not be as physically apparent, but definitely psychologically and societally. So yeah, it's interesting.
Tobi
Thank you. And I learned about patrescence, not that I learned it with that word, but I learned that the dads are always a bit behind with their transformational journey, because they don't have that body transformation like women experience it, in the very early stages of their motherhood already, of their pregnancy already. And the dads, they have to wake up and realize,
Lucy Higgins
Yeah.
Tobi
you're a dad now. That's what I learned in my course. And I'm still about to grasp what that really means, I guess.
Lucy Higgins
And there's no rushing it. It's one of those things that just happens and you go with it. When I think back, our children are now 15 and 13, and I think me and my husband are unrecognizable as people. We are completely different to what we were 15 years ago.
Tobi
Yeah, exciting times, definitely. But getting back to coaching: what role does matrescence play for your clients, and also in the positioning of your practice?
Lucy Higgins
Yeah, so I would say it's really exciting actually, because I call it updating your files. We've had this sort of filing system in our heads of who we are, and coaching allows us to update our files on who we are, our identity. Matrescence is a huge part of that because, as I've just described, of the amount of change that we all go through, and how unique each individual's change journey is as well. So coaching can provide that space to articulate how they're feeling, what changes they've noticed, and to update their sense of self and identity and gain some confidence. And to start to think about the future. Okay, so now I know this about who I am, because I've changed so much, I know who I am now, what do I want for the future? Because coaching is all about present to future. So what do I want? And then I can help them to create that for themselves. But they need first to do the work around, well, who am I now? So that we are not building that future based on a past self. So I'd say matrescence is
key, because it gives a word for what they're experiencing or what they have experienced. And it never ends, by the way. You go into a new matrescence with every child you have, and you are never not in matrescence as long as your children are there.
Tobi
And in our previous episode you said, as a coach you should think about, how do you help your clients to get from Hell Island? And what I hear now is, this is your Hell Island: being in this sort of identity, existential crisis. This is what you help your clients with.
Lucy Higgins
Exactly, that's it.
Tobi
And what I see is that, based on that, you have sort of built two offers, in a way.
And those I also recognize from our earlier conversation, where you said, okay, there are these two ways of coaching, directive and non-directive. And that's actually exactly what you also offer. On your website you say, okay, non-directive, ICF aligned coaching, this is basically where you offer a package of open one-on-one coaching, right? And then the directive coaching, this is more of your package program, a transformation journey that you are offering. So let's unpack both of these a bit. Let's get started by looking a bit at this non-directive coaching.
Lucy Higgins
Yeah. So for me, this particular non-directive package is good for people who don't want a full career change, they just want to tweak something. They know that they want to stay where they are, maybe, but there's something not quite right. They're either struggling with work-life balance, or confidence, or they want to get promoted but they're not getting promoted. Maybe they haven't had an interview for a while and they're feeling like they need some interview practice. So I would call that more executive and career coaching. It's like the client comes with particular issues or things that they want to change, and we'll work on those. Whereas the directive package is for people who are like, I need to do a full MOT on who I am, and from that space work out what career is going to suit me. And it may be that I stay where I am, or I go back into what I used to do, or it may be something completely new. So the people who do that option are very open-minded, and they're very stuck. They've run out of ideas and they want some guidance. A lot of people feel they want handholding, and this gives them that.
Tobi
On our previous session we also talked about pricing, and you said, well, now you charge 250 pounds for a session. If I check your website, that doesn't seem to be entirely accurate, because actually I cannot book one session.
Lucy Higgins
Oh, that's true.
Tobi
I'm always booking a package of sessions, right? Can you talk a bit about that? How do you package that?
Lucy Higgins
So when it's a new client, I will always do a minimum of six sessions, because I don't believe I can add enough value in less than that. But when it's a client, like I've had clients that I've had for five years, I know them really well, we can just hit the ground running, and I'm very happy to have a one off session with them, or a couple of sessions, or three sessions maybe. It takes a while to get to know a client, to build that rapport, that trust, and therefore I wouldn't do it for less than six sessions. So yeah, I do have a sliding scale, depending on whether it's a package they're booking, or whether they're an existing client, depending on their budget, on whether they're paying or their business is paying.
Tobi
And then your second offer would be the directive coaching. And there it looks like a sort of standardized program that I can see here. You call it career change coaching, going through three stages: exploration, dreaming and discovery. Can you tell us a bit about that? How did you come to build it? How come it looks the way it looks?
Lucy Higgins
So I did a continuous professional development course with a company called Firework, and these three phases are created by them, and it's based on years of experts looking at what the best kind of career change programs are, essentially. So it's sort of bringing all that together. So I've got exercises, assessments and things that sit behind each of these three: explore, dream and discover. I can access all of that because I've done this course. And then what I've done is create my own spin on it. So I'm sort of
looking, what I notice through experience is that it's not as simple as that, right? That there are so many barriers that people come up against, so many obstacles, and I've listed those underneath. So things like fear is a massive one. You could spend three sessions at least on fear, on dealing with fear. Confidence, any assumptions they're making, the limiting beliefs they have, their identity, which we talked about already, their worldview. So what I mean by that is the social conditioning that we have, which is so ingrained often that it takes a while to unpack that bit and loosen it up and potentially create a new worldview which is actually going to serve that client. Parenting, obviously a big one, like what's going on with the parent, they might have stress at home or whatever that's getting in the way. Parental responsibilities, so they might be looking after their parents. Work-life balance, a huge
one. Not in here, but finances is often one. Systemic barriers, relationship dynamics. So although I've laid out that explore, dream, discover, I've never had it that you just go through it like that. We normally kind of dip out of it and work on something, like the Saboteur assessment that you and I are going to do in a bit. We might look at your mindset for a few sessions and then come back to it, and then notice how working on their mindset has actually shifted how they see their career, or the options that are available to them, et cetera. So it's not linear. But what I love particularly about the explore phase is, I'm just going to read these out in case somebody's listening to this rather than seeing it on the screen. We are looking at identifying your personal strengths, your life purpose, your core values, your interests and passions, the knowledge you have, your ideal working day, your skills, your professional
strengths, your work motivators, your work achievements, your ideal work environment. And something called your powerful self, which is a visualization that I do with people to access that subconscious part of them, the part that believes in themselves and knows that they can achieve anything. And through that process you get a very strong sense of your identity and who you are. And only from there, I believe, can you then start to do your dreaming. What are the possibilities with this identity? What's realistic? And let's then look at, okay, then what's your vision? What vision have you got for your life and your work? And then, right, let's face the current reality. Well, you've only got two pounds in the bank, so can you actually go and retrain? No. So we look at the reality of it. We build a bridge between the reality and the vision, so an action plan, and then they start to take action. And then if people want
help, if they want accountability and stuff, they can book more sessions and I can help them to actually make it happen. It's funny, because I had an exploratory call yesterday with a new client and I explained these two options, and she said to me, oh, it's really interesting, when you started talking about this one you just lit up and you started gesticulating like a movie. And I was like, it's because I really believe in it. I think it's a brilliant program, and it's something that I wish I'd had. Because it's really rigorous, and it's particularly suited to transitions like motherhood. So, yeah. But it is directive. And by directive I mean, there is a program we're going through, but the sessions themselves are pure coaching. So those sessions are like, right, so you've done this exercise, what did you get from that exercise? What awareness do you have now that you didn't have? And we start to shape their identity in that first bit.
Tobi
How did these two pillars of your private practice, on the one hand the non-directive coaching, simply packages of several sessions, and next to that this structured program, how did this evolve for your private practice as a business?
Lucy Higgins
So I started off with the non-directive, and I realized that my client base wanted more of a guarantee that they were going to get an outcome. For people who have never done coaching before, I think it's quite a gamble actually, to pay all that money when, as a pure coach, I'm saying, I don't know that you're going to get the outcome, that's up to you, it's up to you how much work you put in. If that was me, I'd be like, oh God, I don't even know if I like coaching, or if it's going to work, it could be a complete waste of money. Whereas with the directive, they can see very clearly how we go through the program and what they're going to get out of it. And that's what I learned, that some of the business that I was losing was because they wanted a more structured approach. So that's why I created it.
Tobi
Because I guess with career coaching it is often not a burning issue that the client comes with, but this sort of subtle discontent with my life situation, struggling family, being a bit withdrawn from that career vision that I used to have. And then you don't just say, okay, here's my coaching, you can book six sessions, let's go. But you can say, look, here's a path that has worked for other people, and at the end of this tunnel you can see the light, because we will go through this and this and that. And you sort of take the client by the hand and show them the light, in a way.
Lucy Higgins
Yeah. But also what's quite nice is that some of my clients will say, well, actually, I know my strengths, I know my core values, I know a lot of this. And so I say to them, right, well, you go away and you fill in what I call these canvases, which are like boxes with each of these in, they just write notes in them, and see how much awareness you've got now and what's missing. And then we can do that. And so, even though this is a directive program, I can be flexible with it, depending on the self-awareness that the client's currently got.
Tobi
Nice. And you sort of developed this career change program based on your own private practice, basically the non-directive sessions, but then you also did this Firework program. So how did those two paths come together historically for you?
Lucy Higgins
Do you mean, why did I invest in the Firework program?
Tobi
And how did you then tailor your very own career change program from the Firework program?
Lucy Higgins
Yeah. I suppose it's a bit like what I said to you earlier, that you are unique, so what you bring as a coach is not to be discounted. I think that is another difference between coaching and therapy: the therapist tends not to have a personal brand, or to be visible, to be out there sort of saying, right, this is my story and this is why I coach and blah blah blah. I would say embrace it, because we can bring a lot of ourselves into it. So what I've done is, through experience of coaching, I mean I've got over 2,000 hours now of just coaching mothers, so I've got a huge amount of knowledge there that I can bring into this directive program and tailor it accordingly. And I know it's going to work because of the experience I've got. And not only that, because of my own experience, because I've been through it myself and I am going through it, it's my kids. So I think it is that credibility piece, that people trust that I can help them, and therefore they're more willing to invest in me, I think.
Tobi
And how was the process with Firework, going through their program? How did that look?
Lucy Higgins
It is quite quick. It's six months, and it's just three half day sessions, I think, where they train you on how to use all the tools, and they explain the different ways that you can market it and deliver it and stuff. And then you've got your trainees that you are working with, and you can have a buddy. I had a lovely buddy, we practised with each other, and I'm still in touch with her and she's gorgeous. And that's a lovely thing about these continuous professional developments, just the amazing people you meet on the courses. So yeah, I had a lovely experience with them, it was great. There's not a huge amount of support, though. You're not going to do it and then be part of a community and everyone's supporting each other. It's not really like that.
Tobi
I would say you learn their way of doing it and then you adapt it for you and for what works for your clients. And it was a one-off investment for you. So you did the program, you invested six months and a bit of money, and now you've adapted it to yours, and you're also free, you don't pay a yearly membership fee or anything.
Lucy Higgins
No. And I spent about three years debating whether to do it, and I wish I'd done it sooner, because I made back my money within the first client. I think I charged the same amount of money that I spent on the course, and I made it back. You know when they say things like that on websites and you think, oh, that probably won't happen to me? But it did. And it actually gave me a lot more confidence as well, because it was tried and tested, I knew it worked. So yeah, I really, and I think I'll continue to evolve this as I get more experience of delivering it, and I'll just continue to tweak it and stuff. I love it.
Tobi
Awesome. Thanks for sharing. I think now I got quite a good bird's eye view of your business. So let's actually zoom out and take a bit of a bird's eye view. I quickly took note here of what I understood the pillars of your coaching business are. So we have the different offers, or the different, yeah, we could call them channels in a way, that you have. And from a client perspective, maybe my first question: how is it different in terms of investment if I book this package of six non-directive sessions versus if I sign up for the whole program? How does that look for me as a client?
Lucy Higgins
So do you mean money wise?
Tobi
Yeah.
Lucy Higgins
So six sessions is 1,200 pounds,
and that's non-directive. The reason this is less than what I'm about to take you through is because I don't need to do much in between sessions. The directive coaching, the career change program, that's 12 sessions and that is 2,200. And that's the minimum, so it can be more depending on what people want, basically. So it can go up to like 2,600, because some people say to me, I know I've got to do a load of work on my mindset, for instance, so already I know that we are going to need a few extra sessions for that. And this one requires more of me, because I'm giving the client a lot of exercises and things to do, and I have to read through all of those before I meet with them, and that can sometimes take ages, because I'm quite in depth with my prep.
Tobi
Yeah. But it still seems like a great deal for the client, because they get the structured program, and you also do that sort of pre and post work, it sounds like a bit more than you would do in the non-directive one.
Lucy Higgins
Definitely. And that's the individual rate, that's for individuals and charities.
There's a higher rate if corporates are paying.
Tobi
Okay, interesting. Let's go there.
Lucy Higgins
So for the corporates, six sessions is, I think it's 1,400 at the moment. It's not a huge amount more. And then the other one is 2,400 to 2,800. So it's not massive.
Tobi
A slight markup, basically. And if we look at what role they play today: I said, based on our conversation, okay, those are the pillars of your business. But how important are these different pillars? If you had to put percentages here on each of these four, what percentage of your revenue, and maybe also of your time, do they make up these days?
Lucy Higgins
Oh, okay. So on average I have 30 clients a month, so at any one time. At the moment, of my clients, I think 20 of them are with BetterUp and 10 of them are private clients. But, as I told you earlier, there's a lot going on in my personal life, and so what that means is that I am relying quite heavily on BetterUp, because I don't have the time or the energy to be thinking about private work. When I have more time and energy, I put a lot more into the private work, and then I get more clients and I can dial down my BetterUp work, which is, I don't get
paid as much for that.
Tobi
And if you had to split it between the non-directive and the directive part, of these 10, just on average, I'm sure there's a big variety month to month, but what share of your clients go for the directive and the non-directive coaching?
Lucy Higgins
Oh, most of them go for the directive.
Tobi
Okay.
Lucy Higgins
So my non-directive,
Tobi
80-20?
Lucy Higgins
Yeah, probably. So my non-directive is normally clients that I've had for years who come back and say, I want to book a package of six or 12 or whatever. I rarely get new clients wanting that non-directive anymore. I don't know why. That's made me think, I need to think about that. You're a good business coach, you are making me think.
Tobi
It seems like a great offer to me, just looking at that chart.
It looks really holistic and transformational.
Lucy Higgins
It is. And also I think it's very well suited to my client base, so that's another thing. I think I've found an offer that really appeals to that client base. And also I think I really enjoy it. So maybe there's something subconscious in the way that I do my exploratory calls, like that client said yesterday, I was getting all energetic about it, because I love it. Whereas the pure coaching I do enjoy, but I don't get as much of a buzz from it.
Tobi
Awesome. Thanks for sharing, and also for being so open and transparent. For me, this is how I learned to become an entrepreneur, really understanding how the business of other people works. And that's also what I try to do for coaches on this podcast.
Lucy Higgins
I think it's really important to be open and transparent in an industry which isn't that open and transparent, despite the fact that our coaching values are all about transparency. So I'm very happy to be transparent.
Tobi
Nice. Is there any final advice you would maybe have given to yourself, if you were now able to meet the younger Lucy who is building up this career coaching business?
Lucy Higgins
It would be, honestly, just trust that you are naturally good at this and lean into it. Don't question what you love. Just a quick story: my husband always said, years ago, that if we were at a party he'd be like, where is she? And I'd still be at the door with my coat on, having a conversation with the first person that I met. Because I'm someone that seeks out deep conversations and interesting conversations, and I'm not interested in being the loudest person in the room and being in a group and all of that, it actually stresses me out. I like being one-to-one, having conversations about stuff that matters. So I think I would say to my younger self, see that as a strength and as one of your skills, rather than just a random bit of your personality. It's actually something you can make your career out of. So yeah, I'd say to new coaches, notice those little things about yourself. To let you in on a weird secret of mine, I quite like funerals, because at funerals people just say it how it is. All the bullshit's gone. It's just like, I'm going through
hell, let's talk about it. Or it gets very existential, very philosophical. It really calms me. So yeah, I would say to my younger self, I would just say, lean into that.
Tobi
Be authentic. Trust what seems normal to you but remarkable to others. That is maybe the golden nugget.
Lucy Higgins
Exactly that. Yeah. And let's face it, that is hard to identify in your twenties, because you don't know yourself that well. But I think by the time you get to your thirties you are starting to really see what makes you stand out as an individual. So just lean into that.
Tobi
Thanks so much.
Okay. This is it for today's Making of a Coach. I really loved how transparent Lucy was with us, and how we really managed to unpack and even visualize the pillars, the building blocks, of her life as a coach. I'm curious how you found it to dig into this so specifically, even putting down some
post-its on a whiteboard. Let me know your feedback. You can text me on LinkedIn or drop me an email at tobias@metafox.eu. I'd love to get your critical and constructive feedback, so we can further evolve these sessions and get the right guests for you. If you already liked it, you can also recommend it to a friend, and of course tune in again in two weeks. Then we'll have our last session with Lucy, zooming in even a bit more on one particular tool she's using as part of her career change program, in a very hands-on coaching demo. All the best until then. I'm Tobi from metaFox. Bye bye.