Coaching Demo with Lucy Higgins: Overcoming Restlessness with the Saboteur Assessment by Positive Intelligence

Tobi

I want to find peace.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah.

Tobi

Peace of mind. Not being in this restless state of, okay, there's this and this and that, that I want to achieve today.

Lucy Higgins

The real power of this saboteur is in its ability to stay hidden, because then it's just automatically driving you. But if you start to uncover it, bring it to the surface, it loses some of its power. Would you like to take this assessment that I know of, that can be quite useful for identifying patterns of thinking? Then we'd have that shared language throughout the whole program, that we could keep calling on if it crops up in different sessions.

Tobi

How many of the clients going through your career change program use that particular tool?

Tobi

Lucy Higgins is a career coach and coach trainer who you already met on the last two episodes of the Making of a Coach. In our last sessions with Lucy we unpacked her career change program, where she helps ambitious mothers to redefine their career. This is a directive coaching program, which allows Lucy to make very concrete promises to her clients. And one of these promises is to resolve blockers, like unhelpful beliefs. For this kind of work she's using the Saboteur assessment. This is a super lightweight and also free coaching tool by Positive Intelligence. And on today's episode we will close our small season with Lucy with exactly this Saboteur assessment. We've actually run a small demo coaching, where Lucy is coaching me in my role as a business leader and soon to be

Tobi

How does the career change program look, and what kind of transformation does it bring for your clients?

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. So this is a directive offering that I have. That means it's a program that we are going through, with different exercises and assessments and parts to it, and it's kind of tried and tested. It's for people who have no idea what career they want to do next, and by the end of the program they're crystal clear on what it is and they've got an action plan to achieve that. So it tends to be around 12 to 14 sessions, hour long sessions, and it tends to take about six months to a year to complete. And it's in three different phases called explore, dream, discover. Explore is where we do a big deep dive into who you are as a person. So we are looking at things like your strengths, your life purpose, your values, your skills, your ideal working day, what you're interested in, your passions, et cetera. And once we've got a super clear idea about who you are, we can then move on to thinking about, well, what careers match that identity? So then, basically at the start of this program, you'll start what's called an ideas bank. I'll get you to think about over 35 to 40 ideas. And then in the second phase, dream, we open up that ideas bank and we go, right, which of these are possible? And then we drill down and we choose the top possibilities, and then, for the one possibility, we draft a vision, and then we clarify that vision.

Tobi

Fascinating. So during the explore phase I really get to know myself in depth, is what I hear. I get to know my strengths, I explore my life purpose, I get to know my core values. And is it also in that phase that we deal with these obstacles?

Lucy Higgins

They can come up at any point. In my experience they come up in session one, so they really do come up early with most people, because there's always that question of, well, why haven't you done it already? What's been stopping you? And then you normally get into a conversation around your mindset. Because there are often practical obstacles, but more often than not somebody's getting in their own way.

Tobi

In your framework you have sort of this bucket of obstacles, and when you notice one, then you say, okay, I see we might have this or that obstacle here. And then for some you use this Saboteur assessment, that I have now taken for us, to get a chance to also meet you a bit as a coach and see a small example, a small glimpse in action.

Lucy Higgins

Yes, lovely, exactly. So this is one tool that I might use. I have other mindset tools and things as well, but this was a good one for us to get our teeth into, I think, in a short amount of time.

Tobi

And when would you bring that up? If I was now a client in your program, and we might say I could actually be in your target niche, right? I might soon be going through my patrescence, the process of becoming a dad and having to redefine my career goals, possibly. How do I combine family and career? And we had our discovery call, now we started into the program, and we noticed there's this obstacle. How would that look for me in practice, so that you say, let's pull out the Saboteur assessment?

Lucy Higgins

So, I always send people quite a lengthy questionnaire before we even get going, and that's split into past, present and future. And there are some quite powerful questions in there, that often give me an indication about which of these obstacles might be getting in the way. And if I notice a common theme like mindset, maybe someone's saying they've never had much confidence, or they had a traumatic incident at work which meant that they left work and it was all a disaster, that would be an indication to me that something like this might work. I also ask about their parenting, like how they were parented, their childhood. One question I ask is, what are the common mantras or phrases that you heard in the house as a child? That gives me an indication of it. It's linked to the Saboteur assessment, which you'll see in a minute. All of that will give me an idea. And so what I will do is bring it up, potentially in the first session, and say, oh, I notice this, and then ask some questions about it. And I'll say to them at that point, would you like to take this assessment that I know of, that can be quite useful for identifying the sort of negative patterns of thinking that might get in the way of our work together, but also might get in the way of your career? And it's up to them, I would never push it on anyone, never. It's more like, I've got this thing in my toolkit, would you like to have a look at it? Then we would maybe spend one session looking at it together, and then we'd have that shared language throughout the whole program, that we could keep calling on if it crops up in different

Tobi

And how many of the clients going through your career change program use that particular tool?

Lucy Higgins

I want to say all of them, but it's probably nine out of 10.

Tobi

Okay.

Lucy Higgins

A lot, yeah.

Tobi

Going through that part of your client journey has been quite simple. You had sent me, I think, just the link to the Positive Intelligence site, and then I signed up myself there and I went through a really simple questionnaire.

Lucy Higgins

Okay.

Tobi

And then I think there were a few more of these questions about my status and my current life situation. Demographic questions, that's the word I was looking for. And okay, I said, yeah, I am self-employed, or freelance, in this example. And then I was done, and I received my results,

Lucy Higgins

Yeah, excellent. So what the client will get is nine saboteurs, ordered from nought to 10. The idea being that if you've got tens up there, that negative saboteur voice is quite loud, very loud. But if you've got fours at the top, not so loud. So there is an element of, if somebody, I've never had this, by the way, if somebody had like a four, I might say, actually, how much of a problem is this? It may not be worth us even looking at it, because it doesn't sound like it's that loud or getting in the way. And to be honest, Tobi, even with yours, the six, that's quite low. That is quite low. So it may be that when we go into this conversation you are like, actually it's not that much of an issue. But we'll see.

Tobi

So I got this ranked list of saboteurs, but then, next to the ranking, I also get an absolute score, so to say. And you're saying, if it's only five out of 10 or even lower, then it might not be worth exploring.

Lucy Higgins

I say might not, because it's up to the client whether they think it's worth exploring, irrespective of the number.

Tobi

I'm wondering, and I'm not sure if you have any knowledge about that: doesn't the absolute score also depend on my own scale? If I fill in the questionnaire and I click very much agree very often, then I will get high scores.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah.

Tobi

And I hope the tool then does a sort of normalization of the results, so that in a way this absolute numbers issue that you're describing is not so much of an issue. Do you know anything about that?

Lucy Higgins

I don't, actually. But the way I see it is, it doesn't really matter. What matters is you as the client looking through the profiles of each of these saboteurs, with the scores that you've got, and going, right, out of these, which is the loudest? Which is the one that gets in the way? So for me, I know it's the pleaser and the hyper achiever, I know that. So irrespective of what scores have come out, I look through those profiles and I know they're the ones that I recognize the most. That's the important thing. I'm not so bothered about the numbers side of it, it's more about the awareness that I'm interested in with the client.

Tobi

And in my case we have actually four of them sharing first place with six each: the controller, the hyper achiever, the pleaser and the restless. And we said, okay, let's actually go into one of them, right?

Lucy Higgins

Yes. So which one have you chosen?

Tobi

Just a minute ago, when we were preparing, I told you the hyper achiever.

Lucy Higgins

Have you changed your mind?

Tobi

Actually, seeing it now, I might change my mind, because I'm quite curious about the restless.

Lucy Higgins

Restless.

Tobi

And just seeing the two, they seem quite related. But to me it seems like the restless is, yeah, it's quite a current issue, it seems. It seems like I can very much authentically talk about this right now.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah, right, well let's go into that one then. And, to be clear, just for the people listening: I did a Positive Intelligence coach training, right, but I never went and did the accreditation. What that means is that when I'm using it with clients, I'm not doing the full program. So I'm not going to go into it now, but if anyone's listening and they're thinking, why is she not doing the full program with Tobi, it's because of that. I still use this tool, but I use it in a more light touch way. So I use it for awareness, so that we can have the awareness through the career change program that you've got this saboteur voice in there that could get in the way at any point. That's how I use it.

Tobi

So, similar to how your whole career change program is sort of a variant of the Firework program, what we are going to see here now is also not necessarily the by-the-book Positive Intelligence coaching,

Lucy Higgins

No.

Tobi

but it is the Lucy version of how you actually apply this tool in your practice.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. Okay.

Tobi

Great.

Lucy Higgins

Is there anything that you would like to share, ask or say before we dive into this?

Tobi

Just for context on my situation: I have metaFox as a business that I co-own and co-lead, and at the same time I am about to become a dad, pretty much any day these days. And I've chosen the restless saboteur profile because that's a state that I would often describe myself in. There are always many projects going on, there are always many ideas that come, and high ambitions combined with these ideas. I tend to work a lot, especially when other people depend on me and are waiting for me to pass the ball back into their field so they can go on. And with this high amount of multitasking, restlessness is a common theme. That's my context, and why I chose this profile to work on.

Lucy Higgins

Okay, lovely, thank you. So I'm just going to do a little bit of contracting at the start. Are you happy that we talk about this for 20 minutes, would that be okay?

Tobi

Sounds great.

Lucy Higgins

This is a demonstration, but neither of us knows what's going to happen, it's very much live. I want to check on confidentiality. Obviously this is going to go out into the public, so I just want to check you are happy with that.

Tobi

I'm happy with that.

Lucy Higgins

And if at any point you want to stop, you can just say, I want to stop. In terms of the style that I'm going to be using for this, it is going to be a little bit directive, because it's not an actual coaching session, this is more about us delving into the tool. And I'm going to be asking you questions so that you can gain some self-awareness from this tool, this questionnaire essentially. So at the start of the conversation I'm going to ask you, what would success look like for you today with this tool? What is it you are looking to get out of this conversation? And then we'll go into it. Does that sound okay?

Tobi

Yes. I believe success for me would mean, in this upcoming period of becoming a father and wanting to be there with my attention, with my partner, with the baby, and at the same time going through a very exciting time at the business, at metaFox, I would like to be able to switch off and be present. Not to be restless, but to be able to actually rest with my family and let go of that restlessness.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. And why is that important to you to achieve, to switch off and be present and rest and let go?

Tobi

Two things come to mind. Firstly, my actual first thought was, because I owe it to Johanna, to my partner, being here for her and for once not prioritizing my work.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah, so I'm hearing there's this real desire to be present in the moment with Johanna and the new baby, and a recognition that this doesn't come along very often, it's really important to you, and also you owe it to your partner. So you are aware that there's this restless voice that might take you away from that presence. Is that right?

Tobi

Yeah. And just talking about it now, maybe there's a third one, and that is simply also going beyond this upcoming period. I want to find peace,

Lucy Higgins

Yeah.

Tobi

in a way. Peace of mind. Not lying down in bed and still thinking, what's going on, or waking up in the morning and already being in this restless state of, okay, there's this and this and that, that I want to achieve today,

Lucy Higgins

Okay.

Tobi

for my own sake,

Lucy Higgins

Yeah.

Tobi

actually.

Lucy Higgins

Okay, lovely. So we know what your goal is and how you'd like to be, and we're also aware that you've got this saboteur voice in your head, that we are calling the restless, that is getting in the way, or could get in the way, of your desire to find peace and be present. Okay, so according to this theory, we have a very dominant voice in our head called the judge. And that is the sort of negative chatter that you might recognize, this kind of constant, they're called negative automatic thoughts. They're just there all the time, a bit like flies in your head. And they might be saying things like, oh, you idiot, you messed up again, just sort of generally chatting away negative stuff. Because that's the judge. And what the judge does is, it has nine accomplice saboteurs that it calls upon in different contexts. What this test has shown is that you've got the judge, but the main saboteur that the judge calls on is the restless, to help it. And it's interesting, because as we are talking you might be thinking, well, hang on, this isn't serving me, so why is my brain doing this? The reason, according to this theory, is that we create this mindset in childhood, and that actually it's a coping mechanism in childhood, it's a way of surviving. So at some point, this theory says, you created neural pathways in your brain in

Tobi

It makes a lot of sense. It's familiar from the therapy I did and from mindfulness practice, in a way. I came to the conclusion that in the end many of these things that we carry around with ourselves are about self-compassion, and about acknowledging that there is this pattern, this saboteur, that has a purpose and has a positive intention. And in order to overcome it, the goal is not in cutting it out or rejecting it, but in hugging it and appreciating it, and through that sort of diluting or dissolving it.

Lucy Higgins

That's exactly it.

Tobi

And with regards to the restlessness specifically, I can also see the benefits. This is also what has been driving me here. Why does anyone need to start a podcast on top of all the other things, you know? Sometimes it's stressful and I feel restless, but I also appreciate the life that I've built, and I enjoy all these different projects that I'm juggling. So it's also not so difficult for me to appreciate

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. So what does it bring you, then, this restlessness?

Tobi

It drives me. It motivates me.

Lucy Higgins

Okay, it drives you. But then, if you look at the characteristics, it says: easily distracted and can get too scattered, stays busy juggling many different tasks, seeks excitement and variety rather than comfort or safety, escapes from unpleasant feelings very quickly, seeks constant new stimulation. So that's quite interesting, because those characteristics, how do you feel about those versus what you just said, that it drives you?

Tobi

Yeah, of course. If I hear being easily distracted and scattered, it doesn't sound pleasant, it doesn't sound attractive, it doesn't sound like something that I want. But seeking excitement and variety rather than comfort or safety, I would say yes, that's to some extent the life I want to have, actually.

Lucy Higgins

Okay.

Tobi

That part of it, and seeking new stimulation, is also something that I enjoy.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. But at what cost?

Tobi

Restlessness. Literally not being able to rest,

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. So the word balance is coming up here for me.

Tobi

Yeah. And I think balance for me doesn't necessarily mean to get rid of the excitement and the variety, but it means to be able to let go of the excitement and the variety and sort of switch it off

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. So we're saying that it does serve you, but what would really benefit you is the ability to switch off when you need to. So what's stopping you from switching it off right now?

Tobi

The belief that I need to do this and that before X, Y, Z. Or because person A, B, C is waiting.

Lucy Higgins

Okay, so if we go into the thoughts, because you mentioned that, have a look at those thoughts and see which of those resonate.

Tobi

So the options I can see here are: this isn't fulfilling. This next thing has got to be more exciting. These negative feelings suck, I must shift my attention to something exciting. Why can't anyone keep up with me? I'd say the one that resonates most is, the next thing has got to be more exciting, got to be more fruitful, maybe, in a business context. And just because I see it here also, I cannot really read some of the feelings that are connected. But what really pulls me is this impatience, impatience with what's happening now, and also this wondering, what's next? So it's sort of a combination of this impatience to get done with this one thing, so I can see how it evolves, what's next, what else we can do. That's sort of the thought pattern that comes up.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. Okay. So there's something here that I'm thinking about, which is, I wonder if the restless and the hyper achiever saboteurs, in your case, work quite closely together. Because it sounds like hyper achiever is probably saying, come on, we need to achieve, we need to do more, we need to do better, we need to keep moving. And the restless is saying, yes, yes, we need to keep going, keep going, keep going, don't stop, don't stop. How does that resonate with you?

Tobi

I haven't actually looked at the hyper achiever today, only a few weeks ago when I did the assessment. But just from what it implies with its name, definitely, yeah, this is very much intertwined.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. And again, the hyper achiever is great, because it actually helps you achieve, it drives you. But it's still that same issue you talked about, being able to switch it off. Sometimes it's not appropriate. When you've got the new baby and you want to be there with the baby and you don't want to be thinking about work, how are you going to switch it off? How are you going to switch off that saboteur? What's coming up for you when I say that?

Tobi

Yeah, quite a few things already. I was just wondering, where is it working already, this switching off?

Lucy Higgins

Good idea.

Tobi

And when I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking back a few weekends ago, we had this get together of a group of friends at a random house in the German countryside. And just arriving at that house and being in this environment of, okay, we are chilling together in the garden, a bunch of friends who haven't met in a while, we might actually still be talking about all the exciting projects that are going on in our lives, but immediately I am in this state of letting go of my own stuff, and I can really lean into, okay, what's going on with you? And I can be present without any issues, just because there are these other people that sort of pull my attention, and it feels meaningful.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. Okay. So you've potentially touched on something quite resourceful there, that's what I'm hearing. A way of switching off by getting curious about others. So focusing your attention on others, while it still feels like you're moving forward. You are not kind of stagnant. So that would maybe appease your hyper achiever, because you're still learning, you're still curious about others. It's a little bit slower, that's the sense I'm getting. It's not so restless, it's a bit slower and more present.

Tobi

Yep. It actually has this element of, I can rest here.

Lucy Higgins

Ah.

Tobi

Because I'm with you. Or because I'm involved in something meaningful, in a meaningful relationship.

Lucy Higgins

Okay. So that word meaningful, you've mentioned it a few times. What does that mean for you? I've noticed that word coming up.

Tobi

Yeah. I think that is also in this, like when being driven, oh, let me work on the next project, let me start the next project, I'm also doing that because I find it meaningful, or I believe it will be meaningful. And I think relationships, friendships, possibly also family, are a place where I also have this meaning. So I don't need to strive for it in the next project that gives me this sense of restlessness.

Lucy Higgins

Okay. Yeah. So we're going to stop there, because we've come to the end of this session. I'd just love to get your thoughts on what you took from this very short conversation. What have you taken from the conversation?

Tobi

It's interesting. It's a small discovery, but maybe it's not small. Knowing that maybe I have these two scales of, does this give me meaning? And then the other scale is, does this give me a sense of rest, does this allow me to rest my mind? And I think it could be interesting to look at different activities in regard to these two scales. And one thing, I think, is this: okay, spending time with friends, relationship time in a way. And I guess I can explore more, where else do I get this? Is it sports? Meditation, or meditative practices of certain types, et cetera. So I could go on, but I think my takeaway is having these two scales of meaning and energy, in a way, that I can use to assess paths towards rest, towards peace of mind.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah, okay. Well, let's leave it there, because I don't want to take up too much time, but I feel like there are lots of different threads we could pull to carry on the coaching conversation. I'm glad that you got something out of it, something very small but maybe poignant, something to think about.

Tobi

Thank you. Stepping out of the coaching now, I'd love to still ask you one or two questions. To what extent was this now representative of a typical journey that you would go through as part of the career change program? What would be different in reality?

Lucy Higgins

In reality we would normally go more into the, where has this come from, so the original survival function that was at the bottom of the profile. I think because we only had 20 minutes, I thought it would be more useful for you to just keep it to what your experience of the saboteur was, and try and get you some value out of that. I often will start talking about that profile, but then very much go into a coaching conversation and maybe come back to it later. We don't kind of go through the profile, which is what we did here, we sort of went through it a bit, didn't we? I would more intuitively pull on threads, words that you are using, and go down that route. So, for instance, you mentioned the word curiosity. I wrote down the words meaningful, curiosity, patience, momentum. So that's what I was getting from you, that you wanted, these were like positive words or phrases that were coming out for me that felt resourceful, that I might have pulled on and gone, what does that mean for you? What would that look like, to be more curious? What's the relationship between being curious and resting? And I also probably would have gone more into the vision of what it is that you actually want to create, what life you want to create once your baby is born, and what habits and things you can start to create to manage

Tobi

Yep. So the tool is a conversation prompt that enables you to then have a non-directive coaching session, and at the same time it gives you a shared language that you can use over time in future sessions.

Lucy Higgins

The language that Positive Intelligence theorists use is saboteurs and sage. So they have this kind of sage voice, or I think it's called sage powers. I don't use that. I use voice, healthy voice, and with my clients we will build up a sense of what this healthy voice is. And it's rooted in your core values, your strengths, your vision, your skills, all the kind of positive attributes about the self. And we build up that voice so that it can counteract the saboteur voice. So that would be the next step that I would do with you.

Tobi

And for these kinds of frameworks that you then bring in, you could use other small tools actually.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. So a couple of other theories that I use are transactional analysis. Do you know about the parent, the adult and the child ego states? So the healthy voice would have the adult within it. So, what does the adult state feel like, think like, look like, et cetera? And that would be in the healthy bit. And I also use polyvagal theory, which is a physiological theory that enables you to identify which part of your nervous system you are in at any one time. Again, ventral vagal is the state that is the rest, you would be in a kind of creative, mobilized but fairly rested state, that would be in healthy voice. Whereas the sympathetic, the kind of mobilized, hyper state, that would be in your saboteur voice.

Tobi

So it brings it onto a nervous system level, actually.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. And again, depending on whether the client resonates with that or not, some people don't feel things in their body, they don't notice their body and they don't really want to talk about it. Whereas other people are absolutely fascinated by it. Because we now know that 80 percent of the messages that reach the brain come from our body. They don't come from our brain. We used to think it came from our brain. So if we want to change something, we need to look at what's going on in our body.

Tobi

Awesome. How did you discover the Saboteur assessment, and how was your journey in adopting it into your program?

Lucy Higgins

So I got to be part of a Saboteur assessment pod with some other coaches that were trying it out as a tool. So I joined the pod and I learned how to use it, and then, through that, and I read the book and I listened to all the podcasts and everything I'm meant to do, I decided that actually I don't want to do the qualification in it. It just didn't feel right at the time. But I do want to take the ideas from it, because I think it's really useful for clients to have a name for this voice. It really does help clients to articulate what's going on for them, by having these names, and it sort of emotionally distances them from it, from their mindset. And then, how did I bring it in? I just see it as a really quick and easy get-to-know-you type tool. I just think it's really useful for people, and it is rooted in psychology, it's rooted in research evidence, but it's very simple to understand, I think.

Tobi

Yeah, that resonates also for me from a client perspective. It felt very lightweight. Quite different, actually, from, I've also done a bunch of bigger assessments, like DISC, like LINC, and they feel much more like work.

Lucy Higgins

Yeah. So I'm DISC accredited, I can do it, I just never use it. And that might be one of the reasons. I just think it's not very lighthearted, is it? It's quite heavy. This is actually quite heavy too, in the sense that it's rooted in quite deep psychology, but it doesn't feel like it.

Tobi

Awesome. I also take away a nice example for how our strengths discovery at metaFox could evolve, because I think there we might also aim for that sweet spot of being grounded in science but still feeling lightweight, and mainly fulfilling this purpose of giving a language, a prompt.

Lucy Higgins

Yes, I think that's a good idea. And if you think about the brain: when we're in a stress response and we're having to really think about something, we are not as creative, we are not as open-minded, we are not as curious. Whereas if we are looking at something that's quite easy to understand, lighthearted, we're in a much more productive, creative head space, which is what we want in coaching. So yeah, I agree.

Tobi

Nice. After this long journey of diving into three different areas of your work, is there any question I should have still asked you?

Lucy Higgins

I don't think so. I'm sure you are very sick of my face and my voice. My voice is starting to stumble, because I'm so tired now. So, no, no more questions. Thank you, Tobi.

Tobi

Thank you. Is there any question you would like to leave for the next guest?

Lucy Higgins

What do you wish you could change about the coaching industry?

Tobi

Thanks so much.

Lucy Higgins

No worries. Thank you.

Tobi

This is where we finally conclude our three episode long series with Lucy. I really learned a lot from Lucy, and loved how we were able to look into all these different roles that she has, from coach trainer to successful career coach and, finally, user of the Saboteur assessment today. If you are curious to use the tool, it is entirely for free, and there's only the simple client app that you've seen, so you can simply send your client to positiveintelligence.com/saboteur, or of course go there yourself first, in case you want to try it out. For me the assessment was not only super useful in my role as a client of Lucy today, but also in my role as a coaching tools developer. As already mentioned on the episode, I found it quite a nice inspiration for our own strengths discovery tool: a similarly simple tool with, of course, a different focus, on strengths, not on limiting beliefs. And you can find that one on strengths-discovery.com. That's it for the Making of a Coach today. If you enjoyed this episode, like, rate, subscribe wherever you're listening to podcasts, or share this with a friend. I'm Tobi from metaFox. I