Becoming a Coach with Roel Schaart: From IT Nerd to Tony Robbins Coach and ICF Mastery

that's what I want to do. How do I get on board? And then that mindset that I described earlier: if it's in my mind, I want to have it, I want to do it, I want to get it. I got many rejections. You are not good enough. You are not ready yet.

I will prove I'm ready. So it took two years to get on board. And in those years I did volunteering work, I connected, and I pushed through that. That cost me a lot of money. But it has also been an amazing investment afterwards.

We explore Roel's stories from both of these worlds, and we compare the Tony Robbins, NLP driven approach with Roel's solution-focused coaching approach today. And if you make it to the end of the episode, Roel also has a small gift waiting. But first, let's get started, as usual, with Roel's typical coaching client.

I have a guy in Melbourne who has a big farm, top coaches in Tel Aviv, so it's really quite spread. The common thing is they are very successful. The more successful the clients are, the less I have to work. It's quite funny. So what it means is, they want just some reflections.

There are sometimes even provocative questions. They are very successful. And we'll come back later to the Wheel of Life from Tony Robbins. If you see those guys who are very successful in career, finance, family, it's just tweaking. Of course I really love to work with these guys and say, oh my gosh, what is possible.

So that's the common theme, entrepreneurs, business owners, and they're very successful. What I do is just tweaking, or accountability. I call myself a sparring partner.

I think we cover all of them. Most start with business topics. So they come to my coaching and they have a business topic to explore. For example, how can I double my income? Or how can I expand the business? Or how can I hire an even better, bigger team? The funny thing is that in the sessions it turns to family and connection.

These guys work hard, very, very hard, and sometimes they disconnect from other parts of life. So it always starts with business and it evolves into family and stuff.

So can you tell us a bit about that photo of yours?

So, long story short, I worked and I was really a bit of an IT nerd. I was really a nerd, very shy, extremely shy. If people asked me to get on stage I was blushing and sweating and so nervous all the time. The reason is because I'm quite tall, I'm six foot three, 1 meter 91.

I always look younger than I really am. So I remember a story. When you are 18 as a boy, you want to go to the cinema. We were with some friends and they were actually younger than me, and they were allowed to get in. And there was one guy who heard, you are too young.

That was me, and I was actually older than the rest. And I hated it. I hated having a baby face, and being tall. And those stories were not very good strategies, because I always made myself small, and I was ashamed that I looked younger. Of course, later I worked and I got promoted to different positions, and then I was actually quite happy to be a manager at General Electric.

And my path actually was to be a CIO. But the university decided differently and I got trained as an internal business coach. Then I thought, okay, I like coaching, I think it's the way that I support my peers and my staff. I need to have a coach

myself. And back in the day I read a book, one of the first books Tony Robbins wrote, and I thought, that's the guy.

I need to go to that guy, and I need to have a coach from his team. Long story short, I worked my ass off to get on board, but they rejected me all the time. But my inner drive, if something is in my mind, I like to go through with it and I want to have it.

And I got it. I worked for Tony for more than a decade. And that made my whole transition, myself. So, long story short, from being an IT nerd, getting on board into the coaching scene, and transforming myself into a different person. Quite happy that I've been in the Tony Robbins world and seen my own growth.

So the picture that you saw, that was me being an IT nerd back in those days.

And that still helps me to approach certain things. So there are different phases. The first was the IT nerd, the shy boy, then becoming an internal coach, and then transforming myself in the Tony Robbins world.

I know there are coaches who say, oh, this is a pure coaching relationship and I don't share anything. Perfectly fine. I believe that the business coaching relationship I have with my clients is so strong because sometimes I share my own stories. And the other thing is, and I know it should not be the case, but in my experience it is,

when you are an example as a leader for the clients, it does help the coaching relationship. I'll give you an example. Let's say the client brings a topic, oh, I have worked so hard the last year and I gained some weight, coach, help me to find the best way to send some kilos back into the universe. And imagine I would have 50 kilos overweight.

It's not congruent. That's how I see it. Again, there is no golden rule for this. I strongly believe that it helps me to have a better bonding with my clients. And that's also the reason that I do crazy stuff. I've been with the Navy SEALs in San Diego three times. I do extreme sports, Spartan races, did a couple of marathons.

So, extreme things. One, I like to push myself, but it also helps me to build up my own story. And again, there's no good or wrong, but that's how I see it.

And so I push myself out of my comfort zones in different areas. Now we are about to move to Cyprus and people say, are you insane? You have a beautiful house, everything is established. Yes, maybe. And then pushing myself, that things are possible. It helps me. I'm not saying that this is the right way.

But it helps me. And, you know, Simon Sinek, leaders go first, and that is something that is very strong in me. I want to be an example, but not to be better.

If people insist, and that's also what I say to students when they get themselves certified, you will break rapport if you say, hey Tobi, I'm the coach and you know the answer, figure it out yourself. So there are ways to explore where the client is not disconnected, but you're not providing the solutions.

So, advisory in a coaching setting, always in a coaching setting. I'm not a consultant.

Out of your comfort zone, it is another thing. And the instructor said, if you look in your mirrors, you cannot look in front of you. And I think it's so powerful. If you look at the problem, you cannot find the solution. Now, of course there's more than that in solution-focused coaching. It is exploring with the client where the client needs to go, wants to go, and helping the client to get there in a simple way.

So, no diagnosis, no tools, no tricks. Very powerful.

And that also is how you stay in the coaching stance. Don't look in the rear view mirror, and be the question asker.

If you do it, and you may be scared, but you do it anyway, there's a growing moment. People do not grow if it's easy, because then they stay in their comfort. I think growing will help if you get out of your comfort zone.

And so, the Navy SEAL hell week. That is of course military, that is one institute. Then there is SEALFIT in San Diego. That guy is an ex Navy SEAL and he built a company completely like hell week, sometimes even tougher.

And what it is, it is a 52 hour crucible, they call it hell week. And it is all exercise. No sleep. You do eat, you do drink, but you keep yourself busy, or they keep you busy, for 52 hours. And you need to run with sandbags on your back, you need to do pushups and squats, in 52 hours. And I didn't know how intense it was. I had done a lot of training already and I said, yes, I'm on board.

So imagine, there was a room of so many people, all hands up, yes, we do it. At the end I think we ended up with six coaches going through the training. It was fun, well, not always fun. We trained one year very hard. And then I was in San Diego, imagine, two meter sized big guys, those Navy SEALs, and they looked like monsters.

And I know it's role play, but they want to get in your head. They fuck your mind, and they do that on purpose. So there are many, they call it evolutions. You have to do certain things in order to get to the next phase. And although I trained quite hard, it was not enough. So, the first 52 hours, imagine black pants, white T-shirt, black boots,

they shout at you and you have to do pushups, you have to run, and you have to go in the water and out of the water and into an ice bath and all that crazy stuff. And then I came to the evolution that's an exercise called the MF. And what this means is, you have a 1.6 kilometer run with 20 pounds of sandbag on the back, then you do 100 pull ups, 200 pushups, 300 squats, and then you run again, 1.6 kilometers, one mile, all the way with the bloody sandbag, I still have my scars on my back, and the time gap is 75 minutes.

And I got to 90 minutes, so, short exit. And that happened twice. And there was a smaller one, it's a 12 hour exercise called the 20X. And I did the full 13 hours. I'm quite happy and very proud of this. At the end it's mindset. Physical shape is important.

When I got kicked out, that's how I felt. I was crying, because I thought, I'm stupid, I'm not good enough, I can't do it. And all those fucking bullshit stories that came into my mind. And then the Navy SEAL coach who exited me turned up extremely friendly, very supportive, and was really a good mentor.

He said, listen, there's only a handful of people every year going through this crucible hell week program, and you are one of them, and you're not 20 like the Marines. There are a lot of Marines and guys from the military service, but I was already, yes, 50 or so. So he said, look at how you have prepared, what your physical shape, your endurance, your persistence have gained.

So, a lot of learnings. And I think my biggest learning is, it may look like a loss, like you lost something, but at the end it's a win. And, now with the learning of solution focus, which side of the medal do you look at? Do you look at, oh, I failed,

I'm stupid? And I learned to see the other side of the medal and look, oh wow, I prepared for one year, I learned many, many things, and I'm proud to have been in the most extreme program in the United States.

I remember one thing, and I had prepared, so that was actually not really a problem, but imagine this. I still do a cold shower every day. Why? If you do it every day, you start a little out of your comfort zone. And I also do a hundred pushups every day. Why? Because it is that little bit out of the comfort zone.

And if you do one thing out of your comfort zone, that's my belief, again, that's not the rule, it helps me to do other things. And imagine this: there's an ice bath, full of ice cubes, so it's freezing water, and they have a plastic bottle, they took out the bottom, and you have to put the opening in your mouth and you lay down on your back and you look up, and you need to be in the water for two, three minutes.

Now, looking back, I think, my gosh, what did I do these things for. Meditation, breathing techniques help me to go through those things, and still do.

This is soft, this is not working. And then I read an article that it's actually scientifically proven that the brain structure changes over time when you keep doing meditation, and it calms you overall. I thought, okay, now I know, now I need to do it. So it was proof of the pudding, that it does help.

when the train is late or whatever. It helps you.

When I was a student I read some books from Tony Robbins. I can't remember the names, but the first book was about physical shape and health and stuff. And I thought, oh, there's one coach, I know this guy, Tony Robbins, he wrote a book.

I think it was also, now that you said it, when I was still really a student, so I was 17, 18, I still had those beliefs. Oh, I'm too tall, I have a baby face. And I wanted to know more about it. So I went to a hot coal walking event in Holland. At the time it was not Tony Robbins.

The reason I did all those events and learning is, what is the reason that I have those bullshit stories, about being tall and having a baby face? And then, yes, starting as an internal coach in the IT company I worked for, General Electric, was also about knowing myself. A lot of psychology students,

I think 90 percent, the reason they study psychology is because they want to learn about themselves. So that was also for me, I like to know more about myself. So it was slowly learning about myself, getting internal coaching, and then stepping into the Tony world.

You get on board, you become a volunteer. And if you become a volunteer, then you are so lucky. And I remember myself flying into London City Airport, paying my own ticket, paying my own hotel, paying with my own time, just to be a volunteer and help Tony. So, a combination of being a participant, but also volunteering work.

But then there's also lots of group work that is guided by coaches who facilitate smaller groups. And you were one of these coaches, if I got that right?

that's what I want to do. How do I get on board? And then that mindset that I described earlier: if it's in my mind, I want to have it, I want to do it, I want to get it. I got many rejections. You are not good enough. You are not ready yet. And I thought, what the fuck.

I will prove I'm ready. So it took two years to get on board. And in those years I did volunteering work, I connected, and I pushed through that. That's actually what they wanted to see. They wanted to see, okay, do you really want it? And then I got on board and then the whole circus started.

But that cost me a lot of money. And it has also been an amazing investment afterwards.

For example, we were in class, my class was, I think, 12 people. A lot of trainers. And they gave us a certain exercise. I had to read it and I had to do it. So we were reading, reading, reading, but on the back of the paper was one sentence: don't do anything.

So I was reading this, and then they came with water pistols and they shot at me, and I thought, what the fuck is going on? And I think the learning is, we are so programmed. We get an exercise, we read it, we do it, instead of, hold on, what is going on?

Ask yourself a question, why am I here? What is the surrounding? Maybe look at the back of the paper. Is there anything else? And that happened a couple of times. Another exercise was also funny. It was in the middle of the night, and they said, okay, we will put you in the middle.

This was around Las Vegas. We will put you in the middle of the desert. And you don't have any money, you don't have any cell phone, and you need to prepare. So we were all so nervous, okay, what's going to happen? And I learned, and again it's not always working, to have a bit of a broader perspective, not just grabbing what you see.

And I think it's a great coaching metaphor, especially for MCC coaches. Don't grab what you hear the client is saying, because then you're at the surface. Sometimes it is way below the surface. I think that's what I learned, one of the first things I learned from Tony.

They accompany him throughout that movie. It's basically the one week story of his program Date with Destiny, which is this huge event, 2000 people in a big hall,

and then Tony Robbins goes around and there are these demo coachings, or interventions, that he does with certain people he picks out of the audience. Where I had a bit of resistance watching was these interventions in front of thousands of people, because it's the furthest you can get away from that psychologically safe space between a coach and a client.

How did you see that back then in the Tony world, versus today?

That's my personal belief, and I respect the guy, he's very good in those details. And of course, this is a whatever, seven foot guy, he is very heavy, he's very strong. Imagine there are 10 people, or 10,000 people, watching. So there is an intervention, and there is a lot of pressure.

So people want to change during events. Yes, I like the interventions, and there are things that I see a bit skeptically.

with a microphone, 10,000 people listening in, her husband, saying the relationship is over. And of course there was a lot of pressure, she did it. And I thought, that is so not good. To be honest, I am not aligned with Tony anymore. Because during corona, the whole marketing approach, the American way is different from the German way, or let's say the European way, of getting clients on board.

And I don't feel aligned with the American way of sales.

I'm grateful, having changed in a way, being in that environment for more than a decade. And I'm also happy to have been out for the last five years.

That is not okay. And I'm happy that I learned the ethical framework.

what ICF and what ICF coaches are doing.

So how do you look at these two worlds of, what does it mean to be a coach?

And if you have just read a book and say, I'm now a coach, I think there's a potential danger in approaching clients that way. If you are a brain surgeon, you want to have good practice and theory and study. You don't open a brain and then dig into it. It's the same with coaches.

And then you step into the ethical framework. I do chemistry sessions on purpose, to see, hey, are you and I aligned? Does it really work, you and I together, when we go deeper into the coaching, does it still be a good fit? And if you need the money, you take everyone on board, and that may not be really helpful.

So I see that happening in the marketplace. I am happy to see how, at Solutions Academy, we train coaches in a very good solution-focused way. And I think the students who leave the academy, when they have the certification, they have a solid framework and start coaching in a good way.

I understood that certification is important. So I got support for the ACC, later on the PCC, and then we were in a cohort together with some other future MCC coaches. So I was not MCC, and five others were still PCC, and we were actually exploring recordings together. And that was a journey, years in time, to get to my MCC.

So that's how I know Kirsten. And of course I've been a member of the board of ICF Germany, in total six years, and vice president for two years. That network is actually quite small. Working in German coaching, I know a lot of people. I know Kirsten, it was a great time.

So I'm very grateful to be part of the team. I think her company is really unique. If you look at coaching academies worldwide, the way that academy approaches students is different from others. And it's really doing solution focus, really solution focused. So everything that you know about Steve de Shazer and his way of solution focus is embedded in the academy, and that makes coaching a lot more fun for me now.

It makes all sense now. It's all, let's say, a little piece of process.

And the supervisor, case studies. Very, very important. You may want to underline this, dear coaches, when you listen: get a supervisor to explore case studies. Keep learning, keep training, keep being in a supervision setting. I'm a supervisor myself. That is very important. So it doesn't end when you have a certification.

I think it just starts. You have a certification and then you start your journey. And of course, when I worked for Tony for a decade, my assistant counted the hours, I think in total 11,000 hours, all the team coaching and the coaching in these 15 years. Now I'm thinking, what the heck, how did I do this?

Sometimes 12 sessions per day. But we learned really to get out of state, coaching, five minutes break. That is not sustainable, I was wearing down at the end. So how do I do it? Learning, keep practicing, align with other MCC coaches. And of course I am very lucky to be in a wonderful setting with Kirsten and her team at Solutions Academy, to support other students, to listen and say, oh, that's a great idea.

So, when I teach, I always learn. That's the beauty of what I do.

And my observation is, they start working on their goals the first two weeks of the year. In general they're all writing down their goals. And the third week 80 percent stop. And the fourth week there's only a handful of people who keep working on their goals. And I think, why is that? It's not about the strategy, because now with AI and Google and all the other tools you can find how to do it so easily. It's not about the how and the action.

It's more, hey, what is my story? What is the story that I need to have? How does it feel? That's way more powerful, and that's more sustainable, than just action. So I look at action, but more at the person itself.

If he looks at his belly and he thinks, I'm quite fine, there's no chance. He may get a push from his mates, hey, lose some weight. He may do it, but he comes back and stops. So the reason why people change is because they have a benefit from changing. If they don't have a benefit from the change, they keep doing what they do.

There were moments when I thought, I'm stupid, my brain capacity is not enough to be an ICF PCC coach, I cannot do this. With Kirsten, and I really thank her still for this, I found, and this is for the coaches listening, keep your own coaching style. So important. Yes, the ICF markers are important.

And yes, the way of coaching when solution focused is very powerful. And then I learned to find a way. My coaching style is still fast, still results driven. I always call it direct, packed with love. That's a bit of a fun way of saying how I coach with my clients.

And it is solution focused, and it does fit in the whole ICF framework. And then it happened again with me working on my MCC. I was really in a happy space with Kirsten and some other super cool people, getting to MCC, and there were moments when I thought, what the f, this will not work with me.

I cannot do it. Keep my own coaching style, have it in an MCC framework, aligning to the ICF standards. So I think the bottom line is, keep your own coaching style, learn to embrace your ICF framework, and I think solution focus is a very powerful way of coaching.

So I got away from all the tools.

combine these two worlds.

That means, Tony says, the way you feel, your emotions. And again, there's no good or wrong, this is how I frame it. How he frames it is based upon three elements: your own physiology, your clothing, your eating, your breathing, your internal mindset, and the language.

You'll be in good physical shape. If you tell your story all the time, and I was very good at this myself, I'm not good at it, I'm stupid, I can't do it, guess what happens? You start to believe your own bullshit. And when you use negative language it has an effect on how you feel. So that was more the who level.

So in a way Tony is doing the same, but he packs it more the Tony way, I guess.

And what is the most important thing? So the Rapid Planning Method is, what is the result that you aim for? Then we look at all the possible steps, and we highlight the top ones, which give 80 percent of your outcome. And we look into, what does it bring you? What is the feeling that you have?

So if you have an internal, intrinsic motivation to do certain things, you're in a drive. It does help to get results. So that's, in a package, the RPM way. And I still do this. I ask myself, okay, what is the reason I want to do this? Okay, what are the top action items that bring the most leverage?

When I started coaching I thought, business cards, I need business cards, I need a website. All nonsense. It doesn't bring any clients. I did not go and connect with clients and offer complimentary sessions, getting out in the world. I was busy with websites and business cards and flyers and stuff.

Guys, that will not bring you any clients.

And then it's about will.

If people insist, hey, I don't have any way, then I would say, oh, if I look at my successful clients, people do this, people do this, people do this. Would this be something that could work for you? Or, now I've said this, would there be some other way that you can approach this? So I have only questions in my tool bag, not tools.

I'm not saying that my coaching is turning into supervision, but there are elements of supervising in coaching. I think the MCC way of coaching is not that I always do MCC coaching. I think I'm flexible in adapting to what the client would actually like to get out of the session. I think at the beginning, me as a coach, I wanted results for the client.

I have left that behind. So it's more exploring together, eye level, constructive, solution-focused coaching. Most of my clients, for example one guy in Peru, he owns different mines and logistics companies and financial companies in Dubai,

and it's just exploring and checking in.

These guys are really at the top of their level. And being in a safe space, I think that's also key, because there is no one to talk to at that level. You can't talk to your wife, you cannot talk to your peers, you cannot talk to your employees. So I think I'm very honored that I have clients who share their stories, their fears, their beliefs, in a safe space with me.

You may already have a client base when you come from another company, but if you start completely from scratch and you don't have a unique concept. I sometimes hear, yeah, you know what, I don't like sales and I don't like marketing. And I really say, well, you may really want to consider if coaching is your true profession, because the foundation of getting clients is marketing and sales.

So that's what I see, and I have a bit of a double thought. Yes, I see wonderful coaches getting on the marketplace, and I also see coaches who are not going into the marketing and sales. And there are things that I really don't like, getting myself on video and stuff. But I compare this.

Let's say you are on a mountain trip, you're climbing. Most coaches are at the top of the mountain regarding knowledge and experience, but they're in base camp, or not even, about visibility. They're not visible, they don't have any connection. And then they hope to get clients by making a nice business card.

That's not how it works.

So what I figured out is, if you see the number of touch points, that means an email, a phone call, sending them a message on WhatsApp, on average before closing a deal it's 13 touch points.

So what I see happening is, people send an email, people may send a WhatsApp, and they think, oh my gosh, now let's pick up the phone, he's not there, leave it, he's not interested. You need to go more.

13 times before people sign a deal.

And it's actually this book. It's really a great book. It talks about quality assurance, and Kirsten wrote a part, and really top coaches did an amazing job in this book. And I have 10 copies. As a gift to your audience, the first 10 having an email address and an address and a telephone number,

I will give it away. So it's a complimentary book, and the first people may have it.

MCC coaches: I'm very grateful, in my own transition in the 10 years with Tony, for having received amazing support from MCC mentors and MCC coaches like Kirsten. Without those support elements I was not able to do what I have done.

And I think that's so important, and that's something that I like to give back.

If you are currently in your certification process for ICF, you can get Roel as your mentor, find his contact in our show notes. After this gift, my ask is, please leave us a rating on your favorite podcast app, share this episode with a friend, and tune in next week, when we again meet Roel for a deep dive into his favorite tool.

This is the DISC personality assessment. This has been the Making of a Coach. I am Tobi from metaFox. Until next week, all the best and bye bye.