Beyond Cognitive Coaching: Somatic Energy Awareness with Ram Ramanathan
with Ram Ramanathan, Co-founder, Coacharya (MCC ICF)
Transcript
Edited for readability: filler words removed, names checked. It may still contain errors. The audio is the source of truth.
Ram Ramanathan
The moment the coach has an understanding of, this is what is wrong, then you are looking at a solution. You are not looking at awareness. Coaching is principally a journey in not knowing. The moment you have a glimpse of saying, hey, I know what the problem with the client is, you are wrong. You cannot know. That is where the lie is. Because my DNA is not yours, so how would I know what you're facing inside? And that comes from an executive bias, because you are paid to solve problems. So you want to solve a problem first. The coach's job is not to solve a problem. The coach's job is to evoke an awareness, which will solve the problem.
Intro
Tobi
If you've been coaching the same client for 20 years, that's not a sign of experience or loyalty, but a failure, says today's guest, Ram Ramanathan. Ram is a co-founder of Coacharya, a coach training centre in Bangalore in India, integrating Eastern wisdom with global coaching approaches. And being in his seventies, Ram really projects this wisdom and experience. He's an ICF certified MCC, and these days he also certifies new master coaches for the ICF. And yet he's also very critical of cognitive coaching approaches. So of course what we did in today's session is also not a classic coaching session, but a somatic energy awareness process. Basically a body scan meditation applied to a coaching issue. So if you're in a place where you can close your eyes and focus on your body, I'd invite you to join the exercise
that Ram takes me through a few minutes into the episode. And of course we also debrief the ins and outs of Ram's approach afterwards, and discuss how you can bring this kind of work into your practice, even with very cognitive and scientifically minded clients. Enjoy, and let's go.
Who Ram works with
Tobi
Thanks for being here and taking the time today, Ram. And as a means of getting to know you, I often ask people the question: who is a typical client of yours, and what do you usually help them with?
Ram Ramanathan
Well, I don't know. Every client is unique in a way, so I'm not quite sure whether they all follow a pattern. But in the early days, when I started, I started primarily with executive clients, because my own background was as a corporate leader for several years. CEO, business builder, all that stuff. And so, the corporate segment. And that is also more lucrative, they could pay. But over a period of time I do not do too many individual coaching sessions anymore, unless they are personal, and especially if they relate to some emotional disturbances, for which I don't charge. So a fair amount of that is really pro bono in one way or another. And primarily because, in my experience with coaching corporate executives and leaders, however much was a perceived transformation by the clients as well as by the organization, I was unable to find, over a period of time, when I tracked them, that it lasted. Maybe 50 to 60 percent either regressed into their past behaviour somewhere or another, or many of them left. They said, oh Ram, it's been so transformational, and this and that, and I can no longer work in this organization, or I don't want to work anymore, I want to go out on my own. It happened more often than I wanted
it to, because the corporations were paying for it. So there was some kind of obligation that I had to them as well. I didn't find anything wrong with it, but I was uncomfortable. So I personally decided that I will restrict my individual coaching to very, very few. One is pro bono, and maybe a CEO, someone very senior, if they can afford the rates that I want to levy, that's fine. But other than that I mostly work with teams of people, leadership teams, in a systemic manner, which means that they work towards an organizational objective. The process starts with team building, so that by itself is a separate topic. That's one part of it. And within the personal coaching that I do, the pro bono work mostly would be what I would call, which we discussed briefly in an earlier call, the sensory energy awareness model. Because I find that most of the coaching that is done today is cognitive. And from a neuroscientific point of view you are really listening to
lies and analysing lies, if you want to put it bluntly, because those are perceptions and not really what's happening out there. And so if you really want to get something out of the raw data, the metadata, then you have to explore the senses. And that's not easy. It's not difficult either, but I don't think many people want to go into that, rather than asking, hey, what do you think about this limiting belief? It's totally baloney, because what they're going to tell you about their perceptions is what they want you to hear, or the story they want to tell. Unless you really go into the detail. You can go into emotions at the first level, a little deeper, but unless you're going into the raw data, you're not going to get them to divulge what they're experiencing. And that's what I do. So I'll stop here. To be honest, in that story everyone is unique, differentiated, their DNA is different. Somebody comes with an issue of invalidation, somebody with grief, somebody with something else, frustration, whatever. So everyone's problem is quite unique.
Tobi
Yeah, very interesting. And when you say a lot of coaching is about lies, I guess you don't mean there's a malicious intent. What it reminds me of is more the Vipassana meditation practice that I've been doing a few years ago, where it is also a lot about observing what you sense in your body. And that's basically the only thing that you can know is true, because anything else that we make up cognitively is sort of the map of the world and not the real world. And this is, I think, pretty central to your work and to how you interweave Western and Eastern philosophy in your coaching.
Ram Ramanathan
Yeah. If you've done Vipassana, we also discussed that. I had my first Vipassana experience 20 or 25 years ago. It's amazing. It really takes you in, and it takes you through those layers of stopping the cognitive mind, the way the mind plays, what's called default mode.
What really happens is that the first responders to any experience that we have are really our sensory experiences, and that's where we feel them, in the 50 trillion cells of our body, as they talk about it now, rather than in the hundred billion cells in the brain alone. And we don't use that intelligence at all. Many of us are even ignorant about it, and we think it's all there in the brain. So we see a snake and we jump, because of what we have heard about snakes from other people, not because we've had any experience with a snake. So it's a lie. Who knows, that snake might be a wonderful snake that might come and kiss you. What the heck? We don't know that, but we react out of that fear. And in the same way we jump with joy about something which is going to cause us trouble later. All that kind of stuff is what I mean by lies. Of course, if you talk to someone who does cognitive coaching, they'll tell you, oh, you are talking rubbish. Okay, fine, so be it. But the fact is, I can prove that it's
rubbish, that when you are coaching with perceptions, oftentimes what you're hearing from the client has nothing to do with what they're really feeling. So you are responding to what the client is saying as their perceptions, and you're asking questions on that, and you think that you have solved the problem, and the problem still remains. So there are some people, when I talk to them, who say, oh, I have been coaching this person for 20 years, like a therapist. So what's the big deal? Then why do you call yourself a good coach? The whole idea of coaching is to make that person independent, to create self awareness. So it's an insult to the coaching profession if you were to coach anybody for more than about six months to a year. Until such time as the neuroscience, the plasticity, et cetera, sits in, the whole thing anchors, maybe a maximum of about a year or so. And that's the same problem I have with therapists. If somebody says, oh, I have been going to this therapist for 20 years, I say, what's wrong with you? Instead of having been addicted to something else, you're getting addicted to a therapist.
How are they helping you, when today an AI robot can do better? Cognitive coaching can be done by AI better, so these people are going to be out of jobs very quickly, very, very soon. And that's why I call it a lie. And any perception, like NLP, which you're familiar with, neuro-linguistic programming, very clearly says: the map is not the territory. It never is the territory. It's your perception, and the territory, reality, is very different.
Tobi
Yeah. And when I listen to you, what I find quite fascinating is the way you combine neurobiology and spirituality. Even though I use this language today, having spent ten-ish years in the coaching industry, and I also speak of energy in that way, there's still this part of me that was trained as an engineer, and that says, energy is something we measure in kilowatt hours and in joules, so how can that be in my body? I think a lot of it is also about language. And how I come to terms with it is by asking not, is it true, or how is it true, but rather, how is it useful. So I suggest we go a bit into such a process, and you maybe show us how you apply energy awareness and how you integrate it into a coaching process.
Setting up the process
Ram Ramanathan
Sure, brilliant. So this is something we talked about, and you also showed me some of your cards. Let me put it very simply, I'll briefly take you through it. I think Einstein famously said that you can never arrive at a solution when your consciousness is still in the problem state. So you've got to move out of that. Whenever we start any kind of coaching work, if you are going to talk about something that is bugging you, something that is giving you sleepless nights, whatever it may be, then you are in a disempowered situation. First you have to be empowered. So I'll take you through that anchoring state, where you can go a little high, at least temporarily for that time being, and you become more
aware. And then what I'm going to ask you is to experience whatever it is that you are experiencing as a negative. We are not coaching you for something joyful, that you can do yourself. It's only if it is causing you some issues. I don't want any context or any content. Zero, absolutely zero, except to state, okay, I'm having this problem, I want to get out of it. I might ask you, okay, if you get out of it, what's going to happen to you, and how would you know it? Or something of that sort, so that we have a framework. And then I would ask you, what is it that you are really sensing in your body? Typically in your trunk area, which is where the real body energy manifests. Not in your head, that's cognitive, and maybe not in your limbs. And since you've done Vipassana, I think it should be much easier for you to be able to go within yourself and to feel that. So as you go through it you'll find, and that is where people may say that I'm being a quack, but the point is, when you start sensing it and you start
observing it, it changes. I use language that is used in coaching. You talked about language: David Grove's clean language, which is about using metaphors and so on, and Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg, which is about moving from observations to feelings to needs and requests, those kinds of things. And what really happens is something really fascinating. As you observe what is happening within you, and you can compare it to a metaphor, a colour, a shape, a size, whatever it is that you see, you see it morphing, it changes. And that's the observer effect. And you can do that normally. In future you can use it if, supposing, I have a pain, I have a headache, anything else. I find that just focusing on it for a period of time reduces that pain, makes it more manageable, when I earlier thought it was going to be really terrible and I would have to go and take
Tylenol or its equivalent immediately. I don't need to. Of course, if it repeats, I have to go to a doctor for that. I'm not saying it's going to cure me, but there are many solutions to many chronic illnesses which today do not respond to classical medical treatment, however sophisticated, that are very much based on this observer effect. And the background to that, the way I came into it, is the chakra energy principles of the Vedic sciences, and what is used in Vipassana as well. They don't propagate it, but that's truly what happens when you go into the senses. So that is broadly the explanation. Essentially what you're really looking at, as I said earlier, is that you are not asking questions superficially, transactionally, about the cognitive perceptions and landing up with superficial solutions or non-solutions, or even emotions, but you're going deeper into the metadata, and you're looking at the metadata of the senses, and then you are working with that
data. So when you're ready, we can start that. And what I would like to do is, because when you showed me some of those cards, they're very interesting in terms of creating awareness, so when I'm asking you to sense something, maybe I could ask you, hey, look, as you look at it in shape, size, structure, whatever it is, instead of trying to describe it in words, would you like to show me a card, and what does it mean to you?
Tobi
Super curious. We can also link a demonstration without pictures in the show notes, but I'm super excited to do the one with actual pictures.
Ram Ramanathan
So I'll take you through the anchoring first.
And then, if you have something that you would like to talk to me about, an issue already formed in your mind, that's what you'll be describing.
The anchoring exercise
Ram Ramanathan
So, very simply, this is not any kind of religious meditation. It's a very, very simple centering exercise. If you could just sit straight, with your spine erect, with your hands on your lap, hands open. At the time when I ask you to put them together, just put them together with two fingers touching. Feet planted on the floor, spine erect. If you could just close your eyes, breathe deeply. And as you are breathing in, just tense your body from the feet to the head, all through, and just hold it for a count of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and exhale. Now completely untensing. Relaxing, relaxing, relaxing. And hold. Once again, just once more, take a deep breath, inhale from below your navel, tense yourself, and then hold it. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And relax. Relax, relax, relax.
And now, in this position with the eyes still closed, breathe as deeply as you can from below your navel. Hold it for maybe a count of three. Exhale very slowly, hold. Breathe again. Do it a couple of times more. And now, quickly, we'll keep it simple. Just believe that you are now breathing through your heart space, not through your nose, which is what you do anyway. Unlike in Vipassana, where you are feeling the breath fall on your lip as it enters the nostrils and comes out, visualize that you're actually breathing through your heart space. And as you're breathing through the heart space, deeply inhaling, holding, exhaling, and holding, just try and sense what it is that you're feeling in the area around the heart. Is it a feeling of the skin moving? The heartbeat, are you able to hear it, sense it? Blood
flowing, pounding, crawling, whatever it may be, whatever that sensation is. And if you're able to feel something, whatever that feeling is, just raise your hand a little bit to tell me when you are able to feel that. Keep breathing deep, holding, exhaling and holding. And especially when you're holding, in between breathing in and out, just listen to your body. Are you able to feel anything at all in the heart space? Thank you. That is all you have to do, whatever the sensing is that happens.
Whatever it is. Again, a few more breaths. Deep in, deep out. And staying in the heart space, let the breathing happen in the background. Now visualize yourself in a space where you are in a past experience, where you've been very joyful. Something that you wanted has happened to you, or something that you were able to help somebody with, and you
feel very good about it. You're in the midst of people who are appreciating you. You are in the centre of this beautiful picture in your mind. As large as possible, as colourful as possible, with sounds, with the feelings of smell, touch and taste. Perhaps you are at a party. Just visualize yourself in a space of joy, fulfilment, peace, whatever it is that you would like. It doesn't have to be very active. You could be in the middle of a beautiful garden, enjoying yourself watching a sunset. It could be anything. Whatever it is that makes you really joyful and fulfilled. And again, raise your hand slightly to indicate to me that you're able to experience this beautiful space of empowerment. Thank you. And as you're deeply experiencing it, put the two fingers of each hand, each hand separately, together in a circle. Press it as hard as you can, and as you're breathing deep and holding, just for a count of 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, press your hands together, release. And once more, as you experience this beautiful scenario where you are so joyful, as you breathe in deep, just hold it. 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Anchor it. Thank you. And any time in the future, if you wish, just practise this. You're already experienced with Vipassana, so it should come very easy for you. Press your fingers together and it'll immediately take you back, as a kinesthetic anchor, to that space that you are in. That's really what we wanted to reach with this exercise. Thank you. Please open your eyes.
The session: connection
Ram Ramanathan
So at some point, as you are going through this sensory energy awareness process, I would ask you to do that, to take you into the empowered state and anchor that. So, over to you. Tell me a little, whatever it is that you're experiencing. No details, but what is it that you want to happen as a goal in the session, and how would that be of benefit to you?
Tobi
I'm wondering how to phrase it so as not to reveal too much content. Which I wouldn't mind doing, so I could just share a bit.
Ram Ramanathan
No, don't share it. Don't share it, because I want the people who are listening to it to see why this works as a powerful coaching methodology: there's nothing to be non-confidential about. I don't even know anything to share. So confidentiality and privacy are built into it automatically. To that extent, if somebody wants to practise it themselves and you want to do it with somebody else tomorrow, without violating any privacy, you should be able to do it without having to ask them for details.
Tobi
Yeah. So for me, just on a high level, it is about connection, let's say.
Ram Ramanathan
Relationships.
Tobi
Relationships, yes.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. Difficulty in relationships.
Tobi
Yeah. Maybe loneliness, or feeling connected.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay, fine.
Tobi
And not even difficulty with one particular relationship, but more in general.
Ram Ramanathan
Fair enough. And if you were able to overcome that, to be connected with people, engaged with people, what they call interpersonal sensitivity, or even sociability, apart from overcoming loneliness, in what way would that lead to Tobi being a more fulfilled person?
Tobi
I would be able to feel safe. And in this case it's also a bit about projecting that safety to the people I'm close to, so helping them to feel safe.
Ram Ramanathan
Brilliant. So not only would you feel safer, but you would also be able to create that engagement and trust, to make other people feel better. Brilliant. Let's just leave it at that. I'm sure that you've tried various other things, and we won't go into any of those details, which are the typical coaching questions. So what I want to ask is, is it possible for you to experience a situation where you have tried to establish that connection and it did not happen, for whatever reason it may be, a situation where you felt unable to connect, as it were?
Tobi
Yeah, I think I would go a bit into a different context, but I can think of a situation.
Ram Ramanathan
So I just want you to be there, immerse yourself in that situation, experience it. And all my questions will be about, where are you feeling it in your body? Because a thought cannot just happen. That thought would arise from a sensory experience, and then an emotion, and then the thought, as we explained earlier. So, in your body, between your throat and your lower abdomen, in that space of the trunk, once you are able to experience something, just raise your hand, and then tell me where you are experiencing it and how you are experiencing it. No interpretations, no emotions, no thoughts. Just what you are sensing.
Tobi
A bit of emptiness in my stomach.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. Is there a metaphor that you want to describe, or do you want to pull out one of your cards and tell me, hey, this is what that emptiness feels like? Or would you like to give it some shape, some colour? Is it opening up, is it closed?
Tobi
Okay, let me scroll through some cards. Maybe it is actually this one. Let me add that.
Ram Ramanathan
So, the faceless person, and the fog covering up almost to non-recognition, not quite invisibility. What would that mean to you?
Tobi
It's tense. In a way, I think it's quite obvious that you can see this sort of loneliness aspect in there. But for me it also has a bit of this closing off to experience. He's shrugging, or folding his arms, basically closing off his body to whatever is coming his way. So that's a metaphor that I can also describe the sensation with.
Ram Ramanathan
Yeah, absolutely. It's almost like a person is pulling himself into a shell, looking down, face closed. Now, why I'm doing this: normally I wouldn't, because it moves into a space where there's some amount of cognition. That's okay, but I want to see how helpful it is, because I was also very impressed by what you were able to create as awareness. So this is very, very good, because it brings in a metaphor in a much more visual form, which is one of the core principles of clean language, putting it in a picture format. So then, moving into the deeper aspect of it: as you are feeling it in your stomach now, at this moment, I would just like you to close your eyes, and then feel what's happening to that now that you have looked at it and you are watching it. Is there anything happening to that emptiness?
Tobi
I can sort of feel the sensation of this image, the folded arms, the, oh, I want to protect myself, I don't want to have anything to do with the world, kind of idea.
Ram Ramanathan
Other than the colour of this image, if you leave that out for a moment, that emptiness, the void itself in your stomach, does it have a colour? Does it have a shape? Is it getting bigger? Is it expanding? Is it spiked? Is there anything else that you can use to describe it?
Tobi
I think it would actually have a bit of this fogginess, this expanding white mist, that also feels a bit cold.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. On a scale of discomfort, where zero is no discomfort and ten is very high discomfort or pain, where are you as you immerse yourself in this scenario and experience it?
Tobi
Six, maybe.
Ram Ramanathan
Six. Okay. Can you take a deep breath and exhale loudly through the mouth, inhale through the nose, like that, two or three times. Now, if you watch your stomach space, how does it feel? Is there any difference at all?
Tobi
It's like the mist is fading. The colour is getting a bit warmer, maybe a bit more yellow, orange, warm.
Ram Ramanathan
So the discomfort level, from six, where would it be now? Okay. Since it is still there, I would like you to humbly, curiously ask the sensation in your body, which is a part of you: you are uncomfortable, and as a result I'm uncomfortable, and I would like to be of help, and I'm sure you want to help me. What is it that I can do to help you become comfortable, and to make me comfortable? In whatever words you want to use, as curiously, as humbly, as vulnerably as possible. Do that and see if you can get some kind of an answer.
Tobi
Make me feel safety.
Ram Ramanathan
The sensation is telling you, make me feel safe. Is that what you're saying?
Can you ask, so what can I do to make you feel safe?
Tobi
Be there. Continue.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. Can you ask a little more about what it is that you are expected to do by being there and continuing? Unless you are clear yourself what it means.
Tobi
Yeah, I think it's a trust in this process, and a kind of curiosity towards it. That's where this originates from.
Ram Ramanathan
So can you just respond, saying, yes, I'll be there, I'll continue, I'll have trust in this process, I'll take responsibility. And let me know how that resolves for you. Assure that sensation that you will do what it requests you to do.
Tobi
So now it's me talking to this sensation, in a way.
Ram Ramanathan
Yes, you are talking to your body. You're talking to your own energy.
So how does it look now? How does that sensation feel now, after this conversation?
Tobi
I would say it's still there, but at one or two.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. So do you know what you can do further, to leave it at this one or two and practise for some more time? Or do you want to go through this inquiry a little bit more?
Tobi
I think I could use this image that we anchored earlier, and maybe try that, if that's good.
Ram Ramanathan
Then take a look at that and see if there's anything else coming up, or if there's another image that you would like to choose now that it has become a little bit better. It's your choice.
Tobi
Yeah. I actually meant the inner image from the exercise earlier. But maybe I'll choose one more image, this could also be interesting. I'll take the Russian dolls.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. Can you explain what this would represent to you?
Tobi
What I see there is this warm comfort of family. And it doesn't even necessarily have to be family, but this close community of trust, where you can feel the safety that we spoke about earlier.
Ram Ramanathan
So you are saying that this is a space you are in now, at this point in time. Is that what you're saying?
Tobi
Yeah. And that's what helps to chase the mist away, in a way.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. So it is distinctly different from the first image, which was about holding yourself close, tight, not looking at anything and so on, to something where you are now saying that you can feel the warmth. So as a shift, what does that indicate to you in terms of your own insight, as to what's happening within you, and how will that help you in your actions?
Tobi
I think even when I'm alone, holding this image in mind helps to get the sense of community, of safety. And especially also when I'm with others: if I have this in my body, this sense of safety, community, belonging, then I can also give it, in a way, I can project it onto others.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. I'm doing this mainly for the purpose of those who may be coaches listening to you, because in nonviolent communication it's about the need. Your need is moving away from that loneliness. The image that you showed earlier is about going into this space, which represents to you a much more communal, family kind of feeling. That's what it is. And from there, the request is, how is that going to happen? That is something that you'll develop for yourself. So this is brilliant. You can of course do this more, and then as you progress further you could look at other images, which are much more explicit in terms of
the changes that are happening to you. So at this point I just want you to close your eyes again, and then, when you think about the same experience, is there any other part of the body where a sensation is coming up? Earlier it was coming up in your stomach, the way that you explained it. Is that completely gone, or is there any other tension, void, discomfort, whatever, in any other part of your body?
Tobi
Maybe around the heart area, the left chest area.
Ram Ramanathan
What does it feel like? Is it tightness? Is it a void again? What is it that is coming?
Tobi
Some sort of nervousness.
Ram Ramanathan
Is it a negative nervousness, or is it like butterflies in the stomach, where you're anticipating something which might turn out to be good? What does it feel like to you?
Tobi
I would say it's more of a residue of the sensation from earlier.
Ram Ramanathan
Would you like to take a few of those deep breaths and blow it out a few times, and see whether it stays or goes?
How does it feel now?
Tobi
Lighter. Open.
Ram Ramanathan
Okay. Then take a few deep breaths and just scan the rest of your body, if you want to be sure there is no other residual feeling left. Are you okay?
So now take a few deep breaths, and as you're breathing deep, centre yourself in your heart and put the two fingers together in the kinesthetic anchor, and elevate yourself into that joyful experience that you had at the beginning, that you'd anchored yourself into. And in that safe space, as it were, commit to yourself: I know what to do now, and this will help me move towards
being connected, engaged with others, so that it helps me and helps other people. And press your fingers together as hard as possible, anchoring it, and later experiencing it in the interactions that you have. Okay? If you're comfortable, if you're ready, you can open your eyes.
Debrief
Ram Ramanathan
So, to me this is very good and strong, in the sense that these cards are certainly helping. It's not superficial, it's quite deep, and we can interconnect them very powerfully. We could do something more, we'll talk about it separately anyway. But this is something which you can now anchor and practise for the next couple of weeks, that's my request to you, so that you feel comfortable and confident in connecting yourself with other people, and you're able to see
what changes in you as a result, coming from the space of loneliness that you felt. And I don't want to use it as a cliché, but there's a difference between loneliness and aloneness. I'm sure you know that. Aloneness is fine. Aloneness is absolutely the most desirable state, to be disengaged. But at the same time you'll be engaging with people in different ways. You don't necessarily get meshed up in their space, but you're able to witness it and to do whatever helps people. Loneliness, though, is not a good space to be in. So just keep me briefed as well, let me know how you're progressing. If there's anything else, we can always do this exercise again. And if you need to ask me something more, if there are other things that you would like more explanation on, let me know. So, you wanted to know about the demonstration of sensory energy awareness, and this is as
simple as it gets. There's nothing more, really, that you need to know. I wouldn't get into the diagnostics. There could be diagnostics, if you're familiar with the chakra principle and all that, but I don't think those are necessary, because ultimately, like in any coaching, it's the awareness of the client that matters. Not the awareness of the person who's doing the therapy, stating whatever they think is God's gift to humanity. That's not true. So it's your feeling. And from whatever little we did, I'm very confident this awareness would help you move forward. So practise it, and do it with other people. Try it yourself first, and then try it with other people.
Tobi
It was very interesting. Especially the breathing, it was surprising how much that actually had this cleansing effect on the body sensations. I found that very impressive. Now, in the role as a client, if I relate it to my coach experience, then it reminds me very much of the NLP work that you also mentioned earlier. I don't recall the exact method, NLP is very much into methods and cooking recipes, but there's definitely also a lot of this: okay, let me visualize a very positive state I was in, let me anchor that with a body movement, or with pressing those fingers together. What at least I didn't do back then in my training, and since I've done it, was this meticulous attention to the trunk of the body. I think it was a lot more about, okay, what do you hear, what do you taste, and less this element of, what do you experience in your chest, in your belly area. What role does that play when we look at it through the energy lens? Why do we look at, you said, from the throat to the belly button or something.
Why this area?
Ram Ramanathan
Let me put it this way. First of all, addressing what you said about NLP: absolutely true. What you're referring to as a trance state, the sensory effects and so on, the kinesthetic anchor, is very, very NLP. Of course, in the Vedic sciences there's something called the mudra, but what I'm doing here is very much NLP. And then this box breathing, which is known all over the world, NLP has a variant of that too. Now, from the chakra perspective: anxiety is what you felt in your stomach, relationship issues are in your heart, and communication issues are here, in the throat. So the stomach is more about the anxieties that you're facing, the loneliness, et cetera. That's very common, that's the stress centre. And then it moves to the heart, where there's a residual feeling of, hey, how am I going to connect, how am I going to make this work? And sometimes it goes to the throat. And here, I
don't want to use names, but some of our leaders today think they're all powerful, they know everything, they are wise beyond measure. They're stupid beyond measure. That's the state they are in.
Tobi
And you're pointing to your forehead right now, right? So for anybody who's not watching: earlier you were pointing at your throat, and now this is the forehead.
Ram Ramanathan
If you focus on your left-side breathing, that helps your right brain, and that helps to release more oxytocin. Whereas more right-side breathing, which affects your left, thinking brain, could potentially release cortisol. So you use it for different purposes. If, let's say, you want to get into action and you've got something very quick to achieve and you need to do it, then probably a bit of right-side breathing, right nostril breathing. Otherwise the left.
Tobi
And when you say left or right breathing, do you mean I focus on the left part of the lung, or I breathe in through the left nostril?
Ram Ramanathan
The nostril. If I say left breathing, you press down your right nostril slightly and do that for a few minutes. Just focus, with your mouth closed, on the left.
Tobi
And that would be a relaxation exercise, because it lowers cortisol.
Ram Ramanathan
That's a relaxation exercise, and that's what I normally do. I lie down on my right side, which automatically compresses the right nostril, so I'm breathing through the left, and I go to sleep much faster. But in the morning, if I remember to, I turn around and breathe through the right nostril to get myself active.
It works. And there are other things that you can do, something to do with the hand postures, which will help as well. I wouldn't say they're advanced, but they are techniques which help. Just this alone would help you, though. And this has a scientific basis to it, because of the polyvagal nerve. And especially if you do your left-side breathing, focus on your heart
Tobi
centre and visualize yourself sending out love and compassion to people. So just to recap, the exercise would be to close the right nostril, breathe in through the left, focus on the heart centre, and adopt this attitude of compassion towards myself and towards the whole world.
Ram Ramanathan
And, as you said, serving other people.
Tobi
Very interesting.
A lot of what we are discussing reminds me of a conversation that I had on this show with another executive coach, Nils, who worked at McKinsey previously. So very much, I'm not sure, I wouldn't call him a cognitive person, but for sure he works with cognitive people. And he also said, I remember him very vividly saying, that sometimes he's on the train and sees all these tense people and would want to shake them up and say, just sigh. Because the sighing would basically cleanse and help you relax and get the cortisol level down. And that's also what I really experienced today in this small exercise that we did.
And I think what, at least back then, I didn't see in him talking about this were these elements of feeling into the different areas of the upper body. And what I found interesting is that you even allocated certain emotions to certain parts of the body. Where would I have to look to go a bit more into this? You mentioned the chakras.
Ram Ramanathan
The chakras are essentially not just energy points, but they're also about emotions. So the root centre, at the bottom of the spine, the perineum point, is about greed, unfulfilled desires, forever wanting to have more. Lust, greed, all of that. And then the next level, the spleen centre, somewhere near the lower abdomen, is about fear, the survival instincts. Those emotions reside there. They get lighter as you go towards the navel, which is more about stress. I call it the corporate centre. You see your boss and you feel something in your stomach, because you're not comfortable. Sometimes, for some people, it happens when they see their spouse, but that's a different thing. So that's the stress centre that's affecting you. Once you let go of that stress, you are more capable of getting things done. And the heart is always the love centre. The love centre, acceptance, gratitude, compassion, everything. The three lowest centres are about yourself,
your inner turmoil. That's where you would focus when you have an internal problem. And from the heart onwards, this is where you are expanding to meet the rest of the world, you are connecting with the ecosystem. And the throat you can very often relate to Maslow's fourth level. You can take Maslow, it's very, very similar. The lower two, the safety needs and the security needs, are the first two chakras, or even a little bit the third. The emotional centre is really the heart. The cognitive centre is your validation. Your boss tells you that you are an idiot and you feel bad about it, and that is where your throat chakra gets stuck. So to get yourself cognitive validation, you work on your throat chakra. And self-realization happens at these two points, the forehead and the top. This is, in a very simplistic way, how you work with the emotions.
Bringing this into ICF coaching
Tobi
Okay, thanks for sharing. For a few more minutes I would like to take this a bit into coaching practice. I know that you also accredit MCC, ICF certified coaches, and I'm wondering, how is this approach being received in that world? Because we did very little of what I have experienced as ICF coaching, what you talked about at the beginning of our conversation as cognitive coaching. How would you bring this into the coaching session if you were working with a Western, cognitively minded executive?
Ram Ramanathan
Actually, if you go to our website and take a look, we say it explicitly: that we bring Eastern scriptural wisdom, spiritual wisdom, to align with Western evidence-based scientific research. That's our core pillar.
And let me show you this particular symbol. This is the Coacharya logo, it's getting redone. The zero stands for, when your mind is zero, your energy is infinite. And it's an ensō, the Zen circle, which is about not knowing, unconnected, uncertain, but still complete. And this is the infinity. It's like a yogi meditating, that's what it means. So we make it pretty explicit, and people come to us because of that. But of course they also want to pass their ICF accreditation, and therefore they need to have the competency model. So we frame it in such a way that they can do both. In fact, many of the newer ICF competency models are evolving towards paying more importance to emotions, energy, et cetera. So ICF does recognize that, but unfortunately the trainers have to
recognize that too. The education bodies have to recognize it. So the ICF is not standing in the way, the competencies are not standing in the way. All that they are saying is, like when I started: okay, what do you want to accomplish? Does it have clarity? Does it have importance? What are the challenges you're facing? Where would you like to be? That's what I asked you. So you establish that and move forward into a space of establishing trust and presence. And then you explore, by as much listening as you can do, which is what I was trying to do, allowing you to express. And listening, and visualization, help to create awareness. So it's very much based on the ICF competencies. Maybe some more needs to be added, because there has to be a little more explicitness in terms of the agreement section, but it would pass for a reasonably good MCC credential, so that's not an issue. But at the end of it, do people practise it themselves? That's the
issue, because all coaching has to start from self-coaching. Are you applying it yourself? Like you said, I'm facing loneliness. Do I want to get rid of it first? If you don't, and then you say, oh, I'm now competent as an ICF PCC or MCC, I'm going to help people cure their loneliness, but you haven't cured your own, that is the lie that people are living. They would hate me, they would want to kill me if they heard me, but that's what it is.
Tobi
So you need to do your own work first.
Ram Ramanathan
Yes. It's like Hippocrates said: physician, heal thyself. Have you healed yourself? And then you talk about healing other people. So every single thing that I say or do is after having experienced it. This kind of process, I have done it myself. And I'm not perfect, but there's certainly an experience. Knowledge by itself is garbage, unless it is put through the crucible of reflection and practice and becomes wisdom. And then you can impart that wisdom. And as for the ICF,
it's easy to blame the ICF competency model, that it's being made into some kind of automatic thing. No, it's not. It's extremely well crafted, a well thought out set of competencies. Our differentiation is to make people understand what the meaning of those competencies is. Not just go by the word, not the semantic aspect of it. Go deeper into it, into the sentient and sensory aspect of it. If you do that, you're already at the mastery level.
Tobi
Yeah. And what I could also see, if I were to use this in my next coaching session, is that I would interweave it a bit more with the actual coaching conversation, where there's plenty of space for the client to talk. I think today you made a point of, you as a coach don't even need to know what this is about for me, and you wanted to get that across. But I could also approach it differently and do this exercise, and then have the client speak at length about the issue as well, and then do the other part of the exercise. Would you say that's valid, or do we then risk getting boggled up in cognitive issues again?
Ram Ramanathan
Look, I'm saying it's a little more than just not knowing. The moment the coach has an understanding of, this is what is wrong, then you are looking at a solution. You are not looking at awareness. Coaching is principally a journey in not knowing. The moment you have a glimpse of saying, hey, I know what the problem with the client is, you are wrong. You cannot know. That is where the lie is. Because my DNA is not yours, so how would I know what you're facing inside? And that comes from an executive bias, because you are paid to solve problems. So you want to solve a problem first. The coach's job is
not to solve a problem. The coach's job is to evoke an awareness, which will solve the problem.
Tobi
And so in that sense it's actually helpful if you as a coach don't know anything about the issue.
Ram Ramanathan
Which is why I don't want to ask them anything. Sure, I would like the client to be clear. Like you said, you had to think about it: what will happen if I'm no longer feeling lonely? You didn't have the answer immediately, you had to think about it. How will it serve other people? In a regular coaching conversation maybe I would have gone deeper into it. How exactly would you do it, what would the actions be, et cetera. I would have done that to complete that conversation. But here the idea was to go through this process. So in simple terms, a coach should not know, and should not automatically assume they know. Unfortunately, we want to know. Oh, what happened? What is your emotion? What did that person say? How did that trigger you? Why the hell do you want to know? Why did you ask them how they were triggered? Let them explain how they
got triggered.
Tobi
So if I ask as a coach, and if we have more of a coaching conversation in between the exercise, then what I need to keep in mind is that I am asking not in order to know and understand myself, but I'm asking so that the client understands and gets clear.
Ram Ramanathan
Brilliant.
Coaches always say, I need to understand. Why the hell do you need to understand? They're paying you dollars, damn it, not for you to understand. The client needs to understand themselves. Stop with this I-need-to-understand.
And don't thank the client. They're not here to help you. These are minor things, but that is really the mindset that needs to change.
Tobi
Okay, thank you. So if I now say I will try this in my next session, what would be your final words?
Ram Ramanathan
Just practise it for two weeks. Be confident of
yourself. Go ahead. That's the only way you'll learn. You will initially have problems, you'll make some mistakes. So what? I'm fond of saying that coaching is not about life and death. I haven't seen anybody who died in a coach's chair or in a client's chair. So it's okay. You can always say, okay, fine, let's start all over again. It's all right. But do it yourself. Make sure that you feel confident, and then work with others.
Tobi
Thank you, Ram.
Ram Ramanathan
Take care, all the best. And when you're ready, share the conversation with me. Thanks.
Outro
Tobi
This was my session with Ram Ramanathan. You can find out more about his work and their training programs on coacharya.com, and also on their YouTube channel, where Ram and his colleagues have plenty of similar demos and conversations. I can really recommend having a look. The visual coaching platform we used today to select the powerful pictures is metaFox Online. You can go there and try it completely for free, and with the coupon code impactfulcoach, without any space, you can also get three months of completely free pro access, so you really have plenty of time to explore all the features. If you have questions on this kind of work, or feedback on this podcast episode, leave a comment or shoot me an email to tobias@metafox.eu. If you liked it, share it with a fellow coach or a friend. I'm Tobi, co-founder of metaFox, and I wish you all the best on your path towards becoming an impactful coach. See you back here in two weeks. Cheers and bye bye.