Team Coaching with the 5 Dysfunctions of a Team with Tina Blunsdon

Tina Blunsdon

They would just stay quiet if you've got someone who's dominant, and then they take it outside and talk. I called it the bathroom chatter. We put a stop to bathroom chatter, because they would go outside, talk to somebody else in the bathroom and not say it in the room. People who are quieter in a room won't speak up, but they're usually the ones whose voice, when they say something, is quite profound, because they thought about it. I will throw in a grenade, if you like. I will throw in a question, or I will ask, "Why didn't anybody challenge this?" I always get the highest person in the room to be vulnerable first, because if they're vulnerable and open up, the others will. I do it backwards. I get them to be vulnerable, and I get them to speak last when it's a decision. People don't like holding each other to account for something they haven't done. They know they have to, but they run away. So it's really important to keep things simple, because if you make it too complex, it goes out the window.

Tobi

Have you ever sat in a meeting where nobody said what they actually thought, and then the real conversation happened ten minutes later in the corridor? My guest today has a name for that. She calls it the bathroom chatter, and putting a stop to this kind of pattern is where her work as a team coach begins. Tina Blunsdon runs Coaching for Growth in the UK. She has been coaching for more than ten years, and a lot of her work with teams builds on Patrick Lencioni's Five Dysfunctions of a Team model. The model explains teamwork through a pyramid made up of trust, conflict, commitment,

Tina Blunsdon

Thank you, Tobi. It's exciting to be here.

Tobi

And out of the many walks of coaching that you're working in, we picked team coaching for today's session.

Tina Blunsdon

We did, yes.

Tobi

Because you're working with teams, and in order to get into your clients' shoes and really imagine how things look, I would like to start with the question: what do these teams that you work with actually struggle with just before you get hired?

Tina Blunsdon

I usually start by doing one-to-ones, to be honest. Through the one-to-ones, we look at the culture and the leaders within the team, because I usually work with directors and the board to start with. Out of that, it comes up how the team is actually working together, and then I get involved with the team workshops and training. Because sometimes people just want workshops. They don't want workshops that are going to challenge them, and I challenge them within the workshops, and they're not ready for that in a normal workshop.

Tobi

It's interesting that you say that. I recall another podcast session here that I was intending to have on team coaching, with Nils Cornelissen, a German consultant, and he also told me that he always starts talking with people one-on-one before he even meets the team. So apparently that's the case for you too. But to understand the situation even before you get hired: I assume there is some sort of issue in the team, so that one of the team members, or maybe the board, or I guess a single person says, "Okay, maybe we can benefit from coaching. Let's talk to Tina." So before you even arrive and have the first one-on-one, what is a common symptom that makes people call you?

Tina Blunsdon

There are two different ways that they come to me with the problems they have. One is they're putting a leadership team together, and they recognize that they don't know how to be a team, because they haven't had it within the company before. Others come to me because they've got issues with a few of their staff members. They're struggling as leaders, can you support them? So there are two ways they can ask for help, really.

Tobi

Interesting. So there's basically one batch that is preventive in a way. A team that's only getting started doesn't yet have any problems, and says, "Okay, before we have a rough start and get into problems, let's start early with some team building."

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah, more forward thinking, really. Upskilling their staff to do it. I've got a few new businesses I'm working with, and it's all come to me by word of mouth.

Tobi

And how large are these companies, and also the teams, usually?

Tina Blunsdon

Oh gosh, that varies. My smallest team that I work with is 12, and the largest I've worked with is a multinational company.

Tobi

Okay. And the group that actually ends up talking to you, how big are those teams?

Tina Blunsdon

If it's just a team, I usually say no more than nine, because I think more than nine is not effective. But then I do individuals as well. I'm not just with the team. The team of leaders is usually around nine at the largest, and the smallest is three.

Tobi

Okay, so three to nine, and those come from organizations that range from startup and SME to multinational.

Tina Blunsdon

Yes.

Tobi

Nice. Maybe let's look not at the preemptive one, but at the problem. You said they struggle with some of their leaders. How does that struggle usually look?

Tina Blunsdon

The first thing I always do is a DiSC assessment. I get them to understand themselves first, and then each other, and I always do that first. Before I work with any team, I do a DiSC assessment. Because once they understand how they approach topics and talking to each other, they can adapt themselves a little bit to the other person. They understand the other person, and they also understand themselves, and I think that is the first stepping stone of how do we communicate. What is good for one person is not always good for another. So we do all that first, and then we start working with the team, because it is all around communication that they struggle.

Tobi

Okay. And the DiSC assessment, for anyone who has not heard of it, and I doubt that's many people, is a personality assessment that helps teams, on the one hand, get some self-awareness about their preferences and their behavior, and also a common language in which they can talk about these tendencies and behaviors.

Tina Blunsdon

DiSC is my favorite to use, because it's non-judgmental and it explains it really well. I think a lot of my clients prefer it to other ones they've had within their company before me.

Tobi

So I guess that is one differentiator that gets you called for a team coaching versus a one-on-one leadership coaching. Or how is that?

Tina Blunsdon

Quite often, if they're struggling as a team at the top, it filters through. They have problems with their own departments as well, because it comes back to their communication, how they communicate with their teams. I usually start at the top, then they ask me to work with departments as well, so it doesn't stop there. Quite often, the industry I'm in is construction. So you have a lot of mechanical and electrical departments, and they don't work together, for some strange reason, whether it's design or actual install. So I help them work together as well. There are all different types of teams that need help.

Tobi

Okay, interesting. So that means when you get hired, oftentimes you don't only work with the one leadership team, but then you also work with their respective teams.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah, after. Once they understand what it can do, because they need to see it to believe it, I then get asked to work with different teams within the company, not just at the top.

Tobi

Okay. And what I learned when we spoke earlier is that your approach is informed, let's say, by the Five Dysfunctions of a Team methodology. What have you found in your practice makes this model so useful?

Tina Blunsdon

It's getting people talking. Because once they start talking and opening up, they can build trust, which is the fundamental aspect. They won't be vulnerable and open if they don't trust each other. And they start to understand each other. Once they open up and understand each other more, you can work on the other functions of a team, which is conflict, commitment, accountability, and then leading to the results, where they all should be working to the common goal.

Tobi

Okay. Maybe let's get started by actually looking a bit at that model. Can I ask you to explain it to us? I'll also put it here on the screen for everyone who's not only listening but also watching.

Tina Blunsdon

Okay. As I said, to start with is trust. Without having true trust with the team that you're working with, you cannot go to the other parts of the model, because you've got to break down barriers. People have got to be open and honest with each other. They would just stay quiet if you've got someone who's dominant, and then they take it outside and talk. With one company I called it the bathroom chatter. We put a stop to bathroom chatter, because they would go outside, talk to somebody else in the bathroom and not say it in the room. So we had to get them to understand it's okay to be open in this safe environment, but it's making the environment safe in the beginning. Then you can go on to conflict. You can start challenging each other. You can't challenge without having trust that you're not going to get shouted down or talked over. And when you can have conflict, you can have really good discussions. Not bullying, not banter, but discussions about a particular topic. And when you unpick that topic, it's like peeling an onion. You can look at it, and then you can commit to it. Because if you commit to something, you can have buy-in from everybody. If you don't get the buy-in, then you can't hold people to account. That's the other area that people really struggle with: holding someone else to account, because it's like that conflict again, the emotional conflict. "Why didn't you do this? You said you were going to." They just leave it. They don't know how to. So it's about showing people how to have healthy conflict, and then they all understand they're working to the common goal, to the same results. They've all bought in. They've put a date on something, and they know who's owning it, and then you'll get the results you're looking for.

Tobi

Okay. So at the foundation of everything is trust, and if we want to phrase it as a dysfunction, then it is a lack of trust.

Tina Blunsdon

Lack of trust, yes.

Tobi

And with trust, we don't necessarily mean, "Okay, I can rely on this guy to get his stuff done." It's more the psychological safety kind of trust: I dare to speak up in this group. Also, if I'm not happy with something, I dare to ask the, quote-unquote, "stupid question." So this kind of trust is the foundation that allows us to go to the next level of the pyramid and have constructive conflict. That's what you're saying?

Tina Blunsdon

Definitely. It has to be a safe place where you can actually say things without the fear. The fear of being bullied or shouted down, which can happen in teams. Because the people who are quieter in a room won't speak up, because they can be put down by the dominant characters. But they're usually the ones whose voice, when they say something, is quite profound, because they thought about it, rather than the ones who talk all the time. They don't always think and process what they're saying. So when they understand each other, and they understand how each other communicates, and you've got somebody who's leading that team really well, they can bring out the best of everybody and build that trust element, which I think is really important.

Tobi

Yeah. So this model is based on a book by Patrick Lencioni. It's a book from 2002, so way before this famous Google study, the Aristotle project, where they came up with this concept of psychological safety. In essence, this guy already said the same kind of thing 10, 12 years earlier. How did this model become so central to your work? If I understood you correctly, it's kind of the anchor point of your approach with teams. What makes it so powerful in your eyes?

Tina Blunsdon

Well, I was working with quite a large company, and they were really struggling with the team element. My husband actually said to me, "I think this would be really good for you to listen to." And when I listened to it, I thought, "Oh my goodness, that's exactly what they're struggling with." It was trust. I took it to the MD and I said, "I think this book would really help the team if I did a workshop on it." All the directors agreed, and then it went from there. And then I realized the power in the work that can be done around it, not just taking the model as it is, but actually diving deeper and getting people to open up and look at things differently. So that's where I branched out more with it, not just the model, and I went deeper with it. And I use it all the time now.

Tobi

Okay, so you even have your clients read the book. How does it help you if they read it?

Tina Blunsdon

Well, they can understand what we're trying to build and what I'm directing them towards. Because it is written as a story, and predominantly my work is in construction, they really get it. That's the feedback I get: we get it, because we can see ourselves around that boardroom table. We can see the characters they're talking about within our own team and how people approach things. And then they can actually see how it could work with theirs, and why these elements are really important.

Tobi

Okay. So the book is a really easy read. It's quite short overall, and I would say 70, 80 percent of the book is a story about a dysfunctional team of, I would say, high-functioning individuals who simply cannot talk to each other and don't function as a team. And then it's the story of, in this case not an external coach, but the newly hired managing director who takes a coaching approach to rebuilding that team. Only at the very end of the book is there a brief explainer on the model. So it's very experiential, visual in a way, how this works.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah. And I think having that story, seeing how she brought it in and the thoughts behind what she was doing, because it explains the reasoning as someone's narrating her thoughts, helps you understand as well. That's the feedback I've got from my clients, that they get it more because it is in a story. And she's come from a completely different industry to the team she is working with. So it doesn't matter what your background is, it's the principle around it that works.

Tobi

Cool. Then let's spend the rest of this episode really unpacking that. You said you work with this pyramid model, and you actually have your clients, the teams, read the book or familiarize themselves with the model. Let's focus on the foundation of this pyramid, the trust, and then, arising from the trust, the ability to have constructive conflict. What exactly is it that you as a team coach do to establish that kind of trust?

Tina Blunsdon

Well, in my workshop, I always start, as I said, with a DiSC assessment. Then I get them opening up, doing something like two truths and a lie, and people have to guess what is the lie and what are the truths. That's really good fun, because people are amazed when they learn something new. Other things I get them to do: one challenge, or something that's been really successful through their childhood that they've taken with them, or something that's happened in their adulthood that's shaped them. So I get them saying something really personal. I've even done this with a team of three who've worked together for ten years, and they still learned things about each other that they didn't know. They all said to me in the beginning, "Oh, we know everything about each other." And they walked out saying, "I didn't know that." That really gets them understanding the person on a deeper level than just the role they do, the superficial of what you're like at work. It is about getting them to open up more, and once you open up, you're more vulnerable, and then you can start working on what trust looks like. So my next bit is looking at what you need as a team to trust each other, to talk, to open up, to be vulnerable. I go around the room and ask them individually what they need to be able to do this. Sometimes it's writing things down on notes, because they don't always like talking, and then they put them up on the window and we look at them all. So it's more anonymous, if you like, and we pick out the topics and discuss those as well, to break down the barriers of why they're not trusting each other. As in: can I be open and honest and have a discussion without fear of conflict? They're fearful even to open up.

Tobi

Okay. So that gives us three steps, if I'm trying to paraphrase a bit. You start with the DiSC assessment, which I guess already opens up the room to talk about myself. I get to reflect alongside that report about my own preferences. You do that in the group also, so everybody gets to hear the others?

Tina Blunsdon

Yes, that's right. What I like doing is putting up the bar charts, because in there is a bar chart, and it's so visual. I put them all around the room, and they have to guess who is who.

Tobi

Nice.

Tina Blunsdon

It's a good one, and not many get it right. They're quite surprised. Then they also have to say one area that is important to them in communication, what they like and what they don't like. They work in pairs with that, and then they swap around and can actually say things they like when they're communicated with, and things they prefer not to. So they have a better understanding of how each other communicates as well.

Tobi

I see. And then in the next step, you said, you're doing team building exercises, like I tell two truths about myself and one lie, oftentimes non-work related, so it's actually a good fun exercise.

Tina Blunsdon

Yes.

Tobi

I'm wondering, and I think that also comes up in the story of the book, do you get resistance, especially in this step? Especially when the company is struggling, do you get this concern from the team members: "Look, we don't have time for these child games," or, "I need to rather get some work done than talk about my childhood." Do you get these concerns? And if yes, how do you respond?

Tina Blunsdon

Oh, that's a good question. Have I ever had that? I had one team who were from different departments, and they wanted them all to work together. They were quite challenging to start with. I had been working with the company a long time, so I knew what their barriers were. I started with the DiSC assessment, and because I got them talking, they relaxed. When they relaxed, I could move on to the next step. We did something humorous to start with, and then I eased them into it. So you have to work with the audience that you've got and really suss them out very quickly. If I need to bring any other tasks in, active listening is a really good one. They have a group of three people. One person has music playing in their ears. One person talks about themselves, any topic they want, for two minutes, and the other one is an observer. That's really good, because then they feed back to each other what they've heard and what they missed. So again, it's like an icebreaker, but they're learning about each other as well. Who can actually listen? Who uses the voice in their head all the time instead of listening? That's another good one to break down those barriers so they'll talk more. I think once you do all those sorts of things, you can go deeper, because they're more relaxed and open.

Tobi

Yeah. And I can imagine this exercise of one person watching the other person speak while they don't hear them is also great to attune people to each other and get them to pay attention. It builds that empathy: okay, what might be going on in this other guy or girl?

Tina Blunsdon

Because they have to look at their body language, see if they can get their tone of voice, their facial expressions. It isn't only about the words you say; the words you don't voice are important, your body language and the signals that you're giving off. The people using the headphones, I've realized, actually start looking for that more, and the feedback they've given me was they had to get in tune with the person to actually understand everything they were saying. It really makes them think, when they're talking to people, that they've got to look at the whole person, not just the words they're saying.

Tobi

Amazing. And this other aspect that you mentioned earlier, I'd also like to highlight. If people talk about their childhood or about these non-work related truths and lies, what you said is that it has the impact of bringing the whole person to work. Not only your work personality, which the others might already know pretty well, but you integrate yourself and show yourself as a human being also. I think that can be quite powerful when it comes to trust and psychological safety.

Tina Blunsdon

Finding out about the human, the real person, can build bridges. I've had that, and I think it says that... I'm not sure if it's in that book. But if you understand someone more in a personal and in-depth way, it also builds those bridges, which really helps. Because people don't know the challenges you've been through in life, and then they can see, okay, perhaps that's why you react in that way when I do something, and that really helps understanding.

Tobi

Okay, and now we spent a lot of time building trust. If we move up the pyramid one level, we end up with conflict. What makes conflict such a positive thing in this context?

Tina Blunsdon

They say, don't they, you need healthy conflict. What I love about the conflict stage is watching the team navigate that and start saying things to each other. But they have to remember it can't be in an abusive way. So we set the ground rules, if you like, with them. Part of the task I set them is: what are you missing to be able to have healthy conflict? Because that's what you want a team to have, rather than the barriers to discussing it. They also come to an agreement on what they will do to be able to have the conflict. Be quiet and let someone else speak. In one team I know of, a very big corporation, the MD actually had a baton for relay racing, and he used that as a signal: it's your turn to speak. Because they all wanted to talk and no one was listening, so no one could ask questions to be able to have any conflict. That really helped them, as an object to think, "Hang on a minute, I've got to be quiet and start listening." When the baton went on the table, they could ask questions. They were really poor at listening, and that helped them turn around to be able to have those in-depth questions. The other thing I teach people is the five whys. You don't just ask why or ask a question once; you ask another question on top of that, and then another one, to really get in depth on what someone's talking about. Because quite a lot of the time, people ask one question, usually a closed question, a yes or no. Do you want this or do you want that? They don't ask why. How would that benefit us? What difference would it make? Once you understand how to question people more, you can have more healthy conflict. You've also got to have someone in the room who can bring it back. If it's getting out of hand, you have to have someone to bring it back to healthy conflict, because it can get personal, and it's not meant to be. It's meant to be about a topic, not the person.

Tobi

And what is your role as a coach in this process? How do you spark this kind of conflict, and how do you keep it constructive?

Tina Blunsdon

When I see something that could be discussed more, because I understand their industry by now, I will throw in a grenade, if you like. I will throw in a question, or I will ask, "Why didn't anybody challenge this?" And then we can go to a vote as well, between one and 99: how important is this question or this topic to you, or whatever is being discussed. They all have a vote, but they also have to write down why, and then they have to say why they're at that number. That gets them talking. That helps them start having that healthy conflict as a team, because I show them different ways to have it. You can do fist to five as well, and they all vote with their fingers. So there are different, quick ways of doing it. A lot of them do use that if they feel further discussion needs to happen and this conflict needs to be resolved.

Tobi

So in a way, you equip them with tools, you could say. You mentioned the facilitation tool, the physical token for question asking, earlier. And now what you're saying is that in order to spark the conflict, you put the finger on the elephant in the room, if you sense there might be one, and then you use a scaling question, like on a scale of one to ten, or with the fingers, I guess zero to five.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah.

Tobi

How relevant is this to you? Or should we stay here?

Tina Blunsdon

Yes, because they still need to be in control of it. Another thing I've done: I had one team where there were four on Teams and four in the room. One of the people in the room really didn't like something that was said, but he didn't use any words. He used his body language, and it was so obvious, but nobody else in the room would say anything. So I paused it and asked that person to explain what was going on for him in that moment. Why was he using those expressions? He wouldn't say it, and the room wouldn't question him. That was really good, because after that session, none of them did it on Teams. They all came into the meeting, because they realized how important it was to actually see each other as a team. They weren't really looking at each other. They were just talking. So even if you're on Teams, it's really important you're actually seeing the other people in the room one way or another.

Tobi

Yeah, because those elephants come in the form of facial expressions.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah, on body language. That's why I do that active listening exercise within the workshop, the one with the headphones and the music, because they have to focus on body language. I think that starts the process of them noticing each other and understanding we've got to look at body language all the way through this. Because in those meetings, if you're not picking up on those subtleties, you're missing masses, and that's when they go outside and complain. They take it out of the room instead of talking about it in the room, where you can deal with it. But if you've got someone facilitating that meeting, they can pick it up.

Tobi

Yeah. So that goes back to the bathroom chatter that you mentioned at the very beginning. People talk about each other, not with each other.

Tina Blunsdon

And that's so common in teams when I first start working with them. They all say, "But we had a discussion after." And I say, "Why didn't you bring it up in the meeting?" Then we unpick their barriers, and often it's their lack of self-confidence. The environment will allow it, but they haven't got the confidence to say it, so we deal with that. That's why one-on-one coaching with teams is really beneficial as well.

Tobi

Okay. So if we think back to our pyramid, and let me put it on screen again for a minute: we now established trust, and that trust enables us to have conflicts, to bring up the elephants in the room and constructively solve the actual issues that get a five, that we think are relevant as a team. I think that's quite intuitive, this connection of trust and then conflict. How do we get from this conflict to commitment? And I guess what we mean here is commitment towards a decision. What is that connection, and how does it look in practice in the team building role?

Tina Blunsdon

Say you're in a board, and you've got directors of different departments. Their main team should be that board, not their own. Their own comes second. The whole of the company comes first. So when they've had that open discussion about why the money's got to go into that department, they are all on board. They've had their say. They may not always agree 100 percent, but they agree to get behind it. And when they get behind it, they are committed to it. Then it's about setting a date, what actions are going to be done, who's going to be doing it, and when they're going to feed back. All that's written down and captured in that meeting. They have all had an opportunity to have a voice, to be listened to, which is more important, and to commit to something, and they all agree. So you have to have it out at that time. Someone may need to help facilitate that to get to that point, but without committing to it, you can't go on to the next stage.

Tobi

That means, in a way, that by having this conflict, we make sure everyone gets heard. People don't necessarily have to agree with each other. We don't strive for consensus, but we strive for all voices being heard and then making a decision. And then what counts is committing to this decision that we made as a team, even though my personal opinion would have gone against it previously.

Tina Blunsdon

You have a better understanding of the why. Everyone needs to understand why. Why are we committing to this? They may have said, "Oh yeah, but I would like another 20 laptops," but I understand why the mechanical team need more people, because they're obviously bringing more revenue in. So it's about unpicking the actual reason why it needs funding, and then everyone getting behind that decision. Because once that team's more effective and bringing in more revenue, they can put the money into other areas. That's just an example.

Tobi

In the end, it's all about the results that we as a company, as the biggest possible team, the biggest possible system, achieve.

Tina Blunsdon

Because if you're only looking after yourself, you're not looking after the company, and it's the company that you need to survive and grow, so that each of your areas is looked after. So it always has to start at the top. I had this with a leadership team. It was quite a big one to start with, I think there were ten in it. I went round the table and asked them, "Which is your number one team?" I think I'd seen them about four times as a team, but I knew them all individually, and they all said their own. So I explained why that team should be their number one, and how to develop that. I asked them again six months later, and they all said that team was their number one, because they'd worked together. They'd built it. They built up the trust, they built up how to have conflict and how to get results, and they started working together. I couldn't believe the shift in them as a team. They understood what that meant, because then they all benefited. They all supported each other, and they all helped each other. I thought I was going to have a job with them, but they got there.

Tobi

That makes sense. And now that we understand the mechanics of the team dynamics and why commitment and the attention to results is so important, let's ask again: what is your role as a coach? How do you facilitate this process of getting to that commitment, even though there is disagreement about how things should be done? If you are the facilitator of this process, how do you make sure that in the end everybody is rallied around the one decision that has been taken?

Tina Blunsdon

Well, I feed back what I see. I ask the questions. And you can do different things as well. You can have a vote, who's on board with this, and if they get nos, then we look at why until they've solved it, and then they all get committed. If someone really digs in, they have to have a really good reason why it wouldn't work. Sometimes they're valid, and it can change a whole room's decision. Someone may have had an experience that caused it to be a problem, and they haven't been able to voice it before. With me facilitating these meetings, the ones I attend before they can run their own, I show them how to do it and how to ask those challenging questions, and afterwards they can start doing it themselves. I have to show them how it's done, because they don't always know how to do it themselves. So as a facilitator, it's teaching them how to ask those questions.

Tobi

And the first thing you said, I think, is that you make this process transparent. Maybe usually the decision is taken by just this one guy, who maybe is the managing director or just the loudest guy or girl in the room, who says what they think should be done, and the rest avoids voicing their opinion. But you make sure that everyone's opinion is heard, and you also help everyone understand the reasoning behind these opinions.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah, if you don't understand the why, people don't get behind it. And I usually ask the top person to go last. I ask people at lower levels for their thoughts first, because otherwise they follow either the loudest speaker, the most dominant person, or the highest ranking. So I always ask them first. But I always get the highest person in the room to be vulnerable first, because if they're vulnerable and open up, the others will. I do it backwards. I get them to be vulnerable, and I get them to speak last when it's a decision.

Tobi

And that goes back to our whole psychological safety and trust point. We assume there is maybe not 100 percent psychological safety, and that's why we want people who would otherwise not voice their opinion, or just fall in line even though they don't actually agree, to speak first. But when it's about being vulnerable and revealing something about myself, saying what I'm not sure about, you ask the top people first. So they role model this behavior and establish: it's okay to be uncertain, it's okay to be vulnerable here.

Tina Blunsdon

That's right. I usually tell them beforehand that's what I'm going to do, so they're aware, because you can't just set them up to fail. They are aware that's what I'm going to do, which helps, because otherwise they'll try and get their say in. So it's about helping the team open up and be vulnerable, and also knowing when to be quiet themselves and let others speak, because they're not always used to doing that. People expect it of them: "You're the head, what do you want? We'll go with what you say." But they've brought me in to help change, and they have to learn to start trusting this change process. They have to show it themselves first before others will commit to it as well.

Tobi

Okay, interesting. For the sake of completeness and really understanding this, I think we have one part of the pyramid left: the avoidance of accountability as one dysfunction. What's that all about?

Tina Blunsdon

People don't like holding each other to account for something they haven't done. It's usually the fear of saying it, of how to start that conversation. They know they have to, but they run away. It's like the freeze, fight or flight modes people get into, and they don't know how to cope with it. So when somebody hasn't done something, in the training I get them to say, "Okay, how would you like to approach this as a team? How are you going to hold each other to account?" I get them leading how they're going to do it, and I listen to what they're saying and how they think it can work, because accountability has to come from them. I can ask them to hold each other to account, but they have to understand how to do it. So it's about getting them to write down what behaviors they expect from the team. One of the things is: if we know we're not going to do something by a certain time, at least communicate it to the others. Don't wait till the day of the meeting, because that doesn't show respect either. So it's about respecting each other, communicating with each other, asking for help. Because one part of trust is, if you're vulnerable enough, you can ask for help or say, "I'm really struggling to get this done," beforehand. They set the ground rules themselves of what they think accountability is, how they're going to hold each other to account, and what they're going to do if someone isn't held to account. I get them to actually write it down. I type it all up and hand a copy to them, or I email it out to them, of what they put in as rules. Because you've got to be able to do that vital part, otherwise there's no point going through all the rest. If you don't hold each other to account for something they haven't done, they just won't do it, and then it all goes pear-shaped. I find that is the biggest one in a team, and that's the first one to slip back: holding each other to account if they haven't done something.

Tobi

And I guess isn't that also a who question, in a way? When I hear accountability, I also think of a tool like the accountability matrix, where we write down the different areas we are working in and who is accountable for which area. That doesn't mean they have to do everything. We're not talking about responsibility. We are talking about who is in the end accountable for what.

Tina Blunsdon

Yes, definitely. Especially at that level, they're not going to go away and do all the doing, but they have to make sure it's done. If it's as simple as, "Oh, I've forgotten, I didn't do it," then they have to explain it to their team, and that's embarrassing. So they're less likely to make that mistake again, and they're more likely to either ask for help or do it, because they have to answer to their peers, and people don't like having to answer. But if you don't get these accountability rules in place, and what you're going to do, you can't hold them to account.

Tobi

And do you have certain tools, methods or exercises that you use to shape and get clarity into this accountability question?

Tina Blunsdon

Usually it's just by getting them to talk it through. What does it look like for them? Because every team I've worked with thinks differently, and they have different needs. So it is them leading this, more so than me. I don't have a particular tool to use. I just ask them, "What do you need? What does it look like? And how are you going to implement this and make sure it's done?" When they talk it through as a team, they all agree on it, and that's why I write it down and send it to them all: you've all bought into it. You can get them signing it as well, because they've agreed to it. If they sign something, it's more official.

Tobi

Okay. So in the end, for you it's about getting everything on the table and then having them agree that this is all, and who is who, in a way.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah.

Tobi

You don't do any... I heard of tools like the RACI matrix or accountability matrix, delegation poker, these kinds of things.

Tina Blunsdon

Not in that workshop. I do those with individuals. Signing up to something and agreeing to it after you've been through all the rest is, in my experience, usually enough.

Tobi

Okay. Keep it simple.

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah, because you need a clear message, don't you?

Tobi

Nice. I think now we really unpacked what makes an effective team: focused on results, trusting each other to have conflict, committing around decisions, and holding each other accountable. Is there anything that we've missed, one aspect in this entire journey of the team coaching process that we didn't pay attention to?

Tina Blunsdon

I think it's the results themselves, because everybody needs to understand what they're aiming for. Why are we doing this? Why are we all going through this process? The results are whatever it is they need to work towards, and that shifts every time. Some people have an agenda which is so long, you cannot do this for every single thing. They can't have results for everything. So it's looking at the fundamental thing that they want to work on and breaking it down. I also look at their agenda and say, "Okay, which is the most important thing that you really need to be working on as a team?" and get them to focus on that. It's like having key objectives and then breaking those down. So it is the understanding why. What is it we're doing? Why are we doing it? What does it look like? How do we know we've hit it? And what does that look like going forwards? And then it's about looking back, having that pause. So it's like the blue, red and pause. The blue is the meeting, the red is the doing, and then you have a pause, and they reflect on what the outcome was. Does it meet what we decided in the beginning? Why were we going through all this? And are the results right? If they are, they move on to the next one. If not, why didn't it work?

Tobi

The blue is the meeting, the red is the doing, and then we pause.

Tina Blunsdon

Pause.

Tobi

Can you explain that more? Why is the blue the meeting and the red the doing?

Tina Blunsdon

The blue is the thinking, the discussion. Blue is having time to talk and think. Then you go away and put it all into action, and then you pause and reflect as a team. Was it successful? Why wasn't it successful? And then you regroup, make another decision, and move forward.

Tobi

Yeah. So in a way, that is maybe what we would call a retrospective in the agile IT world. And in the construction industry that you're working in, you work with this kind of language?

Tina Blunsdon

No, that's something I brought in. I read it somewhere, and it really works. It's easy for everyone because it's visual, and they can see it. They think of blue, and they think of red, and then they remember the pause. It's really important to keep things simple, because I do so much with people. They have to have it simple to understand and to remember to do. If you make it too complex, it goes out the window.

Tobi

How does that goal setting look in the facilitation room?

Tina Blunsdon

That's a different session, about how you set goals and how you deal with things. Because a lot of the companies have a list as long as your arm, and they're never going to get it done. I help them look at what's really the priority, what's their top three, and then out of that they look at the top one they want to do first, and we break that down into smaller chunks, and then they go away and break it down even smaller. So that's a different session, really. And it diminishes at each team. You start with something big, a whole cake, and each department takes chunks out of it, and then you look at it bite-sized with each one.

Tobi

Okay. And I imagine this kind of goal-setting session happens after we are through all the vulnerability and psychological safety work that we discussed earlier?

Tina Blunsdon

It depends on the company and what I've been doing with them. Sometimes they need that sooner, so they understand goal setting, and sometimes they have teamwork first, and then we go on to the strategy of things.

Tobi

Doing it differently might also be a nice remedy to my earlier concern of having people say, "Oh, I don't want to waste my time with childhood stories."

Tina Blunsdon

I've never had that, though, people putting those barriers up about talking, because most people like to talk about themselves.

Tobi

Okay, interesting.

Tina Blunsdon

Two minutes of time. They have to be comfortable first. When you go into icebreakers, everybody hates icebreakers. So I do something where they're moving around and talking in pairs. They're not talking in front of the whole group. So I do a few individual things, like pairs or drawing on their backs, where they have to copy. I think once you break that down... Because going around a room saying your name and where you've come from and what you've done, everybody hates, and that's the barriers. I don't do it like that, because it doesn't help.

Tobi

Yeah. I also discussed that very recently with Mehdi, another facilitator. We also went into why many of these classic icebreakers rather make people feel uncomfortable and don't help them open up.

Tina Blunsdon

Oh, that's right.

Tobi

Okay, great. So let's say I'm an aspiring coach. So far I mainly did one-on-one coaching, and now I want to get started with this whole team coaching thing. Where do you recommend I get started?

Tina Blunsdon

Oh, gosh. Is that started as in talking to people, or understanding yourself? Which way are you thinking?

Tobi

What do you think is first?

Tina Blunsdon

Okay. First of all, it is about where your own thoughts are on this, because you have to facilitate it. You can't just read a book and then go and deliver it, in my opinion anyway. So what are the challenges that the people you're working with are having? Reading the book, taking notes from it, doing your own workshop around it and putting it together, and talking to the powers that be, who give you permission, about what it could offer. Where could the improvements be? What is the difference if you start making people work together, open up, and talk? And how can it benefit the business? Because that's what they want to know at the end of the day. Why am I investing in this? What am I going to get back? So it is about showing where behavior change and communication is more effective. People understanding each other, working more collaboratively. They can make better informed decisions, which in the end gets better results, which in the end gives you better finances. So it's about helping them understand why these sorts of workshops really are beneficial. But you have to understand that yourself first. You have to work with them. In my opinion, what I've done is I work with them for a while and get a really good picture. Then I put it to them and say, "I think this would really benefit the company, because I can see this and this."

Tobi

Nice. And where, Tina, can we find you, your work and Coaching for Growth?

Tina Blunsdon

I don't have a website or anything. Mine's all been word of mouth. I've just had my tenth anniversary of starting Coaching for Growth, and I've never advertised. So you can find me on LinkedIn under Tina Blunsdon and Coaching for Growth. I've been very fortunate. Word of mouth has done it for me, and as I said, I've been coaching for ten years and just celebrated my anniversary, which has been nice.

Tobi

Oh yeah, that's super impressive. So you've been doing this for ten years for a living, and you don't even have a website?

Tina Blunsdon

Yeah. I've never had a website, no.

Tobi

That's so cool, because many aspiring coaches say, "Okay, I cannot get started yet. I don't even have a website." I can sympathize with this idea, but I think oftentimes it is also procrastination, avoiding getting started. And your story here is living proof.

Tina Blunsdon

I started off because my previous job was working in the field of autism. I used to run a team across a college, and then I decided I was going to do my own coaching. Through the training at Animas, where I trained, I got a couple of their clients. Because my background's in education, I was asked to go into my husband's company to support someone who was having challenges with their son, and I helped them navigate the whole system. Then I was asked to support one of his team, an apprentice. So I started off doing mentoring, really, and then other people started realizing I was mentoring apprentices. When they asked me to go into their company, they said, "What about some of your leaders? Do you want some work done with them?" And it's just grown and grown. Now predominantly I work with boards and directors and leaders. I don't do much mentoring anymore; it's evolved over time. And I think you have to be prepared to put yourself out there. One of my biggest clients, who I've had for nine years, I met at a function. I was listening to all their woes about their company. He eventually asked me what I do, and I just said, "Do you think that would be a benefit to your company?" He said yes. He wasn't a director at that time. It took nine months, but I've been with them for nine years, and I still see their staff. Not as often, but they bring me different types of clients for different reasons. You just don't know where it goes.

Tobi

That's such a cool story, because what it reminds me of now is the beginning of our conversation and the entire theme. In "The Five Dysfunctions of a Team," the coach-like leader, Kathryn, also has a teaching background, I think, originally. So that's such a nice parallel.

Tina Blunsdon

She does, doesn't she? Yeah, that's true.

Tobi

I'm not surprised this methodology became your anchor, actually.

Tina Blunsdon

That connection.

Tobi

Yeah. Okay. Thanks so much, Tina. This was super fun and insightful, and I think also really dense and rich. Thank you.

Tina Blunsdon

My pleasure. I hope it helps, and even if just one person gets something from it, it's worth doing, isn't it?

Tobi

Yeah, indeed. We're working on making it more than one, but it's also a work in progress.

Tina Blunsdon

Thank you.

Tobi

This was my conversation with Tina Blunsdon, and the ending of the conversation really reminded me of the early episodes of this podcast, when we talked about the making of a coach, how people turned their passion into a profession. So if you're curious about stories like the one Tina gave a bit of an insight into towards the end, just scroll all the way back to the beginning of this podcast. If you're curious to dig into what we've discussed today, you will of course find the link to Patrick Lencioni's book, The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, in the show notes, as well as the references to Tina's online profile. And if you're looking for exercises to get teams talking about more than work, then I can also recommend picture cards, the picture cards we built at metaFox: something for people to react to, so they can feel comfortable while sharing and open up a little faster. Try them for free on metafox.online or find physical card sets at metafox.eu. If this was useful, share this episode with a friend, and wherever you listen, I'm also grateful if you hit subscribe. If you have feedback, text me on LinkedIn or at tobias@metafox.eu. And with this, I say all the best on your journey towards becoming an impactful coach. See you back here in two weeks. Bye-bye.